Local weather tech startups – corporations that dream up options to chop greenhouse fuel (GHG) emissions – have loved a heady rise over the past decade. However final 12 months, hobbled by financial uncertainty and geopolitical battle, investments within the sector plunged by 40 per cent, in line with skilled companies agency PwC.
Is that this still-young sector definitely worth the threat?
So far in 2024, local weather tech has proven resilience, with startups elevating US$8.1 billion within the first quarter, signalling the resurgence of a sector that appears like it’s right here to remain. However how can local weather tech startups go the space and keep away from the pitfalls that bedevil so many younger corporations?
Becoming a member of the Eco-Enterprise Podcast is Steve Melhuish, a serial entrepreneur and enterprise builder who has invested in and nurtured over 20 local weather tech startups in Southeast Asia to this point. Melhuish pivoted to local weather tech in 2018, having constructed a profession within the digital, cellular and social area. He is probably finest recognized for co-founding actual property web site PropertyGuru, which has 40 million customers in 5 nations and 1,300 workers.
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5 years in the past there was an enormous rush into EVs. Everybody needed to be Elon Musk. Now we’re seeing a resurgence in give attention to the meals, agriculture and land-use area, which is the place 50 per cent of Southeast Asia’s emissions are.
Steve Melhuish, co-founder, Wavemaker Impression
It was Melhuish’s kids who impressed him to maneuver into the local weather area. “The extra I researched local weather, the extra frightened I bought in regards to the future for my children,” he tells the Eco-Enterprise Podcast. “I believed I may simply retire and revel in my life. Or I may look my children within the eye sooner or later, and say I knew how dangerous it was going to be, and I performed a small half in attempting to make the world a greater place.”
After stepping again from PropertyGuru, Melhuish cofounded Planet Rise, which invests in and helps corporations tackling local weather change and social inequality. Its portfolio consists of Singapore-based clear dairy agency Turtle Tree Labs, Sama, which helps migrant employees in Singapore get a good deal, and Asia-focused sustainability publication Eco-Enterprise.
In 2021, Melhuish co-founded Wavemaker Impression, Asia’s first climate-tech enterprise construct fund, which co-founds, builds and invests in scalable local weather ventures. There’s “a humiliation of alternatives” in Southeast Asia to create what Melhuish calls “a hundred by 100” – corporations that generate US$100 million in income by eradicating 100 megatonnes (MT) of carbon emissions from the environment.
So which sectors are hottest for local weather tech startups in Southeast Asia, and what are the challenges confronted by entrepreneurs who wish to sort out local weather change and in addition earn cash?
Steve Melhuish, local weather tech entrepreneur and investor. Picture: Asiapropertyawards
Tune in as we focus on:
- Why PropertyGuru’s co-founder pivoted to local weather tech
- Why wager on local weather tech in Southeast Asia?
- What are the most well liked tendencies in local weather tech?
- Learn how to inform which local weather options really work?
- Widespread pitfalls in local weather tech
- Southeast Asia’s debt finance hole
- The “unending problem” of time-management for entrepreneurs
Full transcript:
You’re a serial entrepreneur, beginning out in property tech within the mid-2000s, once you co based PropertyGuru. Why the pivot to sustainability startups?
You’ve very kindly dated me within the 2000s. However I’m going again a bit of sooner than that, to the Nineties, and web, cellular and the digitisation of content material. I’ve been constructing companies in that area for many of my profession.
PropertyGuru, nonetheless, consumed about 11 years of my life, 24/7. Whereas rising it from zero to 1,500 throughout 5 markets, was extraordinarily taxing and aggravating, my children got here alongside. [Melhuish and his wife, Liz, had twins in 2012]
I missed their first three years, and bought a wake-up name on the twins’ third birthday. I realised that if I carried on working the enterprise seven days every week, this was not per being an awesome dad, clearly.
However latterly was PropertyGuru, which consumed about 11 years of my life – seven days every week, 24/7. In the course of the means of rising it from zero to 1,500 individuals throughout 5 markets, which is extraordinarily taxing and aggravating, my children got here alongside [Melhuish and his wife, Liz, had twins in 2012].
I missed seeing them for the primary three years of their lives. And so I had a little bit of a get up name on their third birthday. I realised that if I carried on the way in which I used to be working the enterprise – seven days every week – this was not per being an awesome dad, clearly.
So I made the dedication to my spouse to place in place a succession plan and take a step again.
So 2018, I used to be very lucky to have the ability to do this. I employed a CEO and handed over all of the operations to spend time with my household. I went on trip, spent a while with them, however I used to be additionally excited about what to do subsequent. In every single place I appeared, it felt like this entire local weather factor was sending me a message.
The local weather drum was beating louder and louder. And 2018 was a 12 months when excessive climate broke data for prices incurred and injury prompted – near US$300 billion. Greta [Thunberg] held a local weather strike that 12 months. Larry Fink wrote his first letter [on the importance of ESG investing] that 12 months. For the primary time, scientists as a neighborhood reached consensus that local weather change was man-made and accelerating.
The extra I researched it, the extra frightened I bought for my children’ future. I had a selection – I may retire and revel in my life, or I may look my children within the eye sooner or later, say I knew how dangerous it might be and I performed a really small half in attempting to make the world a greater place.
In order that was when my journey began in local weather tech.
I wasn’t able to return to the startup area, so I believed how do I play a job on this all encompassing matter? Local weather is the whole lot – in every single place you go is touched by local weather change.
From 2018 onwards, I invested in about 20 totally different corporations within the environmental and local weather area, attempting to enhance meals or meals waste, building, hospitality and manufacturing. I in a short time realised that doing this alone with simply my very own funds was not very sustainable. That’s when I began Wavemaker Impression.
Local weather tech ventures require a lot of capital at an early stage within the life cycle and extra time to interrupt even and scale up. Additionally, just lately we’ve seen wild fluctuations out there. So why would anybody who’s not a “tree hugger” and is threat averse go down this path, notably in Asia?
I comply with a sure extent.
As with all sector or matter, issues go cold and hot. However I feel you’re proper, local weather tech requires a substantial quantity of capital. Notably within the US and Europe, there’s a robust regulatory atmosphere driving funding into the sector. Lots of of billions of {dollars} will then naturally move into fixing a few of these issues – and the majority of that’s going into R&D and science, which is a long run wager.
You then have a look at Asia, the place we now have comparatively weak internet zero commitments and customers on the entire are extra frightened about eking out a dwelling or growing their lifestyle, getting electrical energy and telephones for the primary time, possibly even airconditioning for the primary time. There are a distinct set of pressures in Asia. So why would you even give it some thought [climate tech]?
After we began Wavemaker Impression we needed to take a look at the place the alternatives are. Our analysis confirmed we now have all of the know-how we’d like at this time to cut back emissions by 50 per cent. So the problem actually is just not a lot round inventing new know-how. Why don’t we have photo voltaic on all rooftops? Why isn’t wind deployed in every single place? Why aren’t we extra power environment friendly? Why are we not doing extra of this form of stuff?
It actually boils right down to having the suitable financial incentives. Once you then begin to take a look at financial incentives, you begin to take a look at totally different stakeholders. You see that in Southeast Asia, the place there are many SMEs and micro SMEs and small mother and pop retailers, there’s an enormous quantity of alternative to extend productiveness.
There’s an financial alternative to, say, enhance the yields of farmers, scale back the price of inputs, financing, and harvesting. There are many financial swimming pools and productiveness alternatives, which in the event you add know-how, digitisation and finance, can play an enormous position in driving change.
So we went away and recognized the place the emissions had been, and located that fifty per cent of emissions had been within the agri and meals area. We then went deeper searching for alternatives to cut back emissions.
With rice, for instance, it’s a one gigatonne methane-producing business that feeds half the planet’s inhabitants and the sector is rising tremendous quick. However, simply by altering some practices, you possibly can scale back methane launch by 50 per cent, which is 500 megatonnes of emissions – about half of the emissions of the aviation business.
We constructed an organization which does that. How did we alter behaviour? We created incentives for rice farmers by decreasing the price of the inputs – the seeds, fertiliser, pesticides – we lowered the price of financing, and we elevated their yields by altering to extra productive practices.
So that they get extra income per hectare. We additionally bought a small quantity of offtake at a premium worth. Long run, carbon credit can play a job as nicely – to extend the income we give to farmers to incentivise them much more.
I might say to anyone excited about Asia, notably in rising Asia, there’s a humiliation of alternatives, each from an emissions standpoint, and in addition from a enterprise standpoint to create what we name “100 by 100” – US$100 million income from decreasing 100 MT of emissions. We’ve constructed 10 of these corporations already. By this time subsequent 12 months, we’ll be shut to twenty.
You began Planet Rise in 2019 and Wavemaker Impression, Asia’s first local weather tech enterprise construct fund, in 2021. Inform us what has modified in regards to the local weather tech scene in Asia because you began out 5 years in the past.
To begin with, I’d say I’m a relative beginner. I’ve been speaking to individuals who’ve been investing on this area for the final 10 or 15 years, they’ve already seen the growth and the bust. There was an enormous growth and bust within the early 2000s when everybody rushed into the clear tech area. It was the suitable thought, simply the incorrect timing.
Harvard Enterprise Assessment did a research of 10,000 startups and requested entrepreneurs what’s a very powerful factor [to assure success]. Is it a enterprise mannequin? Is it the founders? Is it the market? It boiled down to at least one huge factor – timing.
You then begin to consider why is the timing good now versus possibly 5, 10, or 15 years in the past. As I mentioned beforehand, we now have all of the know-how to deploy now, it’s each cleaner and cheaper. The price of renewables has come down by 90 per cent and is cheaper most often than fossil gasoline, notably in the event you take away the trillions of {dollars} of subsidies.
So the timing is nice now as a result of the associated fee is decrease now. So that you’ve bought the suitable substances to have the ability to deploy. Secondly, consciousness [of climate change] is now significantly greater. We’re seeing much more proof each day of report temperatures, report floods, report wildfires. We’re seeing an growing frequency and ferocity of local weather impacts on issues like meals safety and migration. There’s an growing consciousness to behave – and act shortly.
Now, there’s one thing like 93-94 per cent of the world’s GDP beneath internet zero commitments. Sure, you possibly can argue it’s not sufficient and not taking place quick sufficient. However a minimum of now there’s progress. Sure, we spent far too lengthy analysing textual content at COP to maintain the fossil gasoline business glad. However it’s transferring in the suitable course.
So now, the motion and timing feels proper.
And if I stand again and assume what else has modified since I began in 2018, there’s much more out there expertise in Asia. After we began Wavemaker Impression, we had individuals from Boston Consulting Group, McKinsey, company enterprise builders, company organisations, taking 30 to 50 per cent pay cuts to hitch us. Fortunately, now we’re capable of pay all of them at market price.
So persons are keen to place their cash the place their mouths are. Notably the younger era, who’re, in lots of circumstances, fairly purpose-driven. They’re saying: “I wish to make a aware determination, notably post-Covid. I wish to work for a corporation that has bought function. I wish to make a distinction.”
After possibly 15 or 18 years of entrepreneurs constructing tech companies in Southeast Asia, we’ve now bought a panorama the place there are founders who’ve constructed one, two or typically three corporations already. They might have made billions, or possibly a couple of hundreds of thousands they usually now wish to do one thing on this [climate tech] area.
There at the moment are increasingly funds centered on nature, biodiversity and the atmosphere… household workplaces like Silverstrand Capital [which invests in regenerative agriculture and nature-based solutions], local weather funds like Radical Fund and Carbonless Asia, in addition to current enterprise capital companies (VCs) like Sequoia, Open Area and AC Ventures now placing extra of their funds into inexperienced tech. There at the moment are extra accelerators like Entrepreneur First and Antler producing extra local weather corporations, and corporations like ours in enterprise constructing.
So there’s extra consciousness and visibility of the place alternatives are. These corporations are usually not simply fixing a local weather drawback, they’re producing income. The businesses I’ve invested at the moment are producing something from US$10,000 to US$50 million and the whole lot in between. These are actual corporations, they’re producing revenues at this time and producing a cleaner consequence. Ten of my portfolio corporations all raised final 12 months – and that was in the midst of the funding winter. That tells me there’s extra curiosity and want to speculate on this area. Now it feels a bit of bit extra mainstream.
Inform us a bit about what the new subjects at the moment are in local weather tech.
I can begin with what not to give attention to. I feel there’s been a whole lot of funding and give attention to deep tech, new R&D and science – which can take a number of a long time to come back to fruition.
There’s additionally a pure inclination for buyers and founders subsequently to give attention to low hanging fruit, which seem like local weather tech corporations, however are literally pure software program corporations. For instance, the place an organization is targeted purely on measurement and information seize.
The pure inclination with extra conventional VCs is that they’ve been investing in web, digital and software program corporations. Now, they’re simply taking that method and making use of it to local weather.
For me, a minimum of the way in which I have a look at it, I personally don’t care who does what, so long as it’s having an affect of decreasing or capturing emissions within the quick time period. As a result of each second there’s 2,000 tonnes of CO2 equal going into the environment.
However software program by itself, I don’t assume goes do it. Carbon credit on their very own are usually not going to do it. It’s like a get out of jail free card for lots of the massive polluters for my part.
What we have to give attention to, I feel, is deploying what we have already got as shortly as attainable, and determine the incentives, whether or not it’s for farmers, or a manufacturing facility or building firm, to undertake this applied sciences at scale as shortly as attainable – and primarily that’s what we at Wavemaker Impression do.
The second lens to take a look at this although is the place the emissions are. What we noticed 5 or 6 years in the past was this huge rush into EVs. Everybody needed to be Elon Musk. And so 70 per cent of all the funding in Southeast Asia was going into the mobility area. However mobility was really about 12 per cent of emissions; 88 per cent of the emissions is elsewhere – and 50 per cent is within the meals, agriculture and land use area.
What we’re seeing in Southeast Asia, fortunately, is a resurgence in give attention to the meals, agri and land-use change area as a result of finally meals, agri and land-use and local weather are inextricably linked for a lot of causes. One is clearly the stress local weather change has on meals safety. Excessive warmth and rising seas, for instance, trigger soil salination and scale back yields. Over-fertilisation produces a lot of nitrous oxide, which is a greenhouse fuel. It’s a vicious circle. As yields decline, extra fertiliser is used, and yields decline additional as soil high quality declines.
So I feel the meals, agri, land-use change is the place [climate tech] is hottest and it’s been underserved for so lengthy. There are numerous alternatives, not simply from an emissions perspective, but in addition financial alternatives. In the event you might help a farmer go from an earnings of US$100 to US$130 or $150, not solely does it have a transformational affect on their livelihoods, but in addition on neighborhood, training and healthcare.
But in addition, mitigation turns into adaptation and resilience. So not solely decreasing emissions, however you’re additionally strengthening the stakeholders to climate the impacts of local weather change by making them financially stronger.
There’s additionally an enormous quantity of agri and meals waste which is simply burnt or left to rot. However in the event you can flip that into biochar, that may be fertiliser for farming, or used as biofuel to switch coal… these are all areas that we’ve constructed corporations within the final two and a half, three years now.
How have you learnt which options work and which don’t, for example carbon credit? A few of these are rising applied sciences, proper? And likewise what are the secrets and techniques to a local weather tech startup that basically goes the space?
First, let’s simply contact on carbon credit, I feel they play a big position when it comes to funding issues like top quality nature-based options. We want a sustainable supply of finance to revive and preserve nature. So I’m not ‘dissing’ carbon credit fully.
What I dislike seeing although, is for instance, startups working very arduous to construct, let’s say, electrical stoves to switch wooden fired stoves, that are safer, more healthy and fewer polluting and generate top quality carbon credit. However you get a big oil firm like Shell providing to purchase these credit cheaply for say, US$10 million upfront.
A startup needing cash would possibly have fun the US$10 million “win”. However in fact that doesn’t occur instantly, and takes time. By the way in which, this locks in a extremely, actually low carbon credit score worth at this time whereas the market grows. And additionally permits the polluter an affordable alternative to offset the injury they’re inflicting [to the environment].
In order that’s why I don’t like carbon credit.
However as a instrument on the finish of the [carbon reduction] course of, or to speed up adoption of a inexperienced know-how, I feel they will play an important position. In our rice challenge, we scale back financing and enter prices, enhance yields, and offtake costs – and if we will get carbon credit as nicely, we will return that capital to the farmers, encourage extra participation within the programme and develop quickly from 100, to a thousand, then 1,000,000 farmers.
The second a part of that query was, what are the secrets and techniques to a local weather tech startup that goes the space, and in addition round untested know-how.
On day one [at Wavemaker Impact], we began with a clean piece of paper and we search for skilled entrepreneurs, who’ve constructed two or three corporations already. We’re not educating individuals learn how to develop into an entrepreneur.
If we now have a selection of working with a do-gooder – or tree-hugger in your phrases – and telling them we wish to construct a unicorn with you, versus somebody who is aware of learn how to scale corporations and do one thing within the local weather area, we are going to err extra on the facet of the entrepreneur who has demonstrated the power to scale.
What we try to do is assist them determine the most important alternative. So we now have a clean piece of paper and a workforce of three individuals who work alongside the entrepreneur for six months. Usually, we begin off with understanding the founder’s ikigai – their ardour, their curiosity. And we attempt to construct on that.
We then go and analysis. And by researching, we begin to uncover potential alternatives. We then begin speaking to potential stakeholders. They is perhaps individuals with degraded land in Indonesia, or individuals working garment factories throughout Southeast Asia, and we perceive what their financial ache factors are. We don’t speak to them about local weather, as a result of with one of the best will on the planet, they don’t actually care as a result of they’re attempting to eke out a dwelling primarily based on what they’re doing in a micro-SME or SME.
Then we attempt to work out, how an answer can play a job in delivering financial alternative and in addition a inexperienced consequence. And consider it or not, there’s an enormous quantity of analysis in lots of circumstances on local weather impacts on deploying of a few of these applied sciences.
For instance, in the event you exchange a diesel water pump for irrigating a area with a photo voltaic pump, you realize you’re going to avoid wasting 4 tonnes of emissions. You then realise if we will deploy 100,000 of those, that turns into half 1,000,000 tonnes of averted emissions from tried and examined applied sciences.
What isn’t tried and examined but is the enterprise mannequin, taking the know-how to scale and the finance – what does all of that seem like? And so throughout that six months, we’re testing issues and getting to some extent the place we’ve bought a minimal viable product – we now have a speculation and we’ve examined the place we expect there’s going to be 100 megatonnes [of CO2 removal] and US$100 million income alternative inside 10 years.
However invariably through the course of, you come up towards roadblocks, and study new insights and pivot most likely two or 3 times to seek out the suitable product market match.
Our job is to attempt to assist the founder discover that product-market match as shortly as attainable. As a result of as quickly as you’ve bought the product market match, you possibly can appeal to expertise, clients and funding so much quicker. However a lot of the corporations are producing income inside 12 months.
The primary one we did is now producing about US$7 million in income this 12 months and is EBITDA constructive already in two nations, and about to enter a 3rd nation. So you possibly can construct good, scalable companies utilizing this boring trial and take a look at course of.
Your investments are usually not at all times assured to repay, quick or long run proper? What’s the greatest mistake you’ve made, and your biggest triumph to this point on this sector? Additionally, what do you watched are the most important errors you’ve observed others make on this area?
To begin with, I’d say that constructing any startup to a degree the place it turns into profitable is a 10-year journey, minimal. However the huge caveat to my reply now’s, I’m solely 5 years into my very own journey, so I haven’t fairly bought there.
Nonetheless, I can share a bit of bit when it comes to, how I approached it initially and the way I method it now.
Initially, after I was transferring into this area, I used to be very “inexperienced” to the subject. I used to be studying. I’d meet individuals and begin by saying “I’m centered on local weather, and I wish to make investments on this area”. I might fall in love with the founders’ concepts, their passions, their function, and be much less inflexible and strict about the potential alternatives.
A few of these early investments I made, out of the 22 or 23 up to now, had been most likely extra “intestine”, or emotionally pushed and got here from a want to do good fairly than a want to do good and now have a big effect.
What modified over time was to assume extra about learn how to have a extremely huge affect.
I feel what has modified, from my standpoint, is being a bit of bit extra disciplined across the founder or founders. Are they curious? Have they got a better EQ? Are they going out speaking to clients each day and studying? As a result of the way in which to discovering the product-market match and accelerating the corporate’s development comes from actually understanding the market, the client’s ache factors and addressing these ache factors.
Or do they know all of it? Do they take the view that “I don’t must know all this, I’m an professional in my space.” That differentiates whether or not an organization will get invested in or not, from my standpoint.
That goes even additional when it’s a science-based firm. Early on, I invested in a couple of deep tech, science-based corporations. And in a lot of them, it’s only a scientist or an engineer so in love with their know-how, they only hold enhancing it, sprucing and gold-plating it. However it by no means will get commercialised. In order that’s most likely the most important errors [made in the climate tech sector].
Attention-grabbing you talked about the EQ of entrepreneurs, which maybe doesn’t get talked about sufficient on this area…
It’s essentially the most basic factor.
The entrepreneurs who’re continuously curious, asking questions, studying, listening, asking for recommendation, taking it on board – not all of it, in fact… They know that enterprise higher than anyone else – however are keen to be challenged, to hear and have a dialogue and be curious…
In the event you’ve bought a founder who thinks they know all of it, they’ve bought one of the best know-how, one of the best product on the planet and everybody ought to have it, then clearly it’s not going to work.
To get there, you could ask a lot of silly questions, you could be actually humble and spend a whole lot of time with clients and be curious.
When it comes to triumphs, I feel it’s most likely a bit of bit too early for me to say.
How I’m taking a look at it’s, the businesses that may have the most important affect. I’ll most likely get slammed for saying this, however I’m not so centered on the monetary returns. I’m doing this trigger I wish to make a world higher place for my children. So I very a lot method it from an affect standpoint.
You’ve bought US$1 million {dollars} left in your again pocket. What kind of local weather tech would you spend money on and why?
I put a million {dollars} into Wavemaker Impression as a normal associate, as a result of I feel if we will construct 60 corporations, and a few of them develop into 100 megaton alternatives, then it begins to seem like a gigatonne alternative, then two or three gigatonnes over time.
You squint and say, okay, possibly that will get to 10 per cent of GHG emissions, whereas the massive funds go into R&D and “rocket science” stuff, which hopefully will materialise and have a big effect in 20, 30 years’ time.
Our focus is on know-how for emissions sequestration, or discount at scale at this time. That means some form of bodily product to soak up carbon. So all the businesses we’re investing in and constructing have some type of {hardware}. In the meantime the entire VC business is geared extra to the software program business and web, which in lots of circumstances is clearly simpler to scale.
If I’m going to the portfolio of all the inexperienced tech corporations I work with and ask: What’s your greatest problem? They’ll say I would like a little bit of emotional assist as a founder, or I would like some assist with organisational growth or enterprise growth or funding.
That’s the identical for any startup. However what’s totally different a few local weather tech firm is the bodily {hardware}. Since you want {hardware} to both seize or scale back emissions. It’s bodily. Within the finance business at this time, notably in Southeast Asia, there’s a niche round funding these companies with working capital or debt finance.
Sure, there’s a wall of VC cash. There are household workplaces, there’s early-stage, mid-stage, B2B, B2C, and many others. However there are not any corporations taking a look at debt finance but. And it’s the one greatest decelerator [in this space].
These corporations can be keen to pay 15-20 per cent curiosity on their cash, as a result of it’s significantly cheaper, fairly than taking VC funding and closely diluting their fairness.
Ideally, you’d have a really wholesome VC fairness financing business, and in addition very wholesome debt finance, working capital and stock financing. However the latter is lacking. So if anybody listening to this podcast is , I’d love to speak to them. As a result of these corporations want anyplace between half 1,000,000 and 5 million in debt finance. That might simply allow them to purchase the equipment, assemble and distribute it, fairly than use their treasured fairness cash, which doesn’t make sense in any respect.
One final thing. I’m fascinated by the way you handle your time. How do you do what you do?
To begin with, I do it actually, actually badly! I don’t get the steadiness proper. Which is why I do know I couldn’t simply do one other startup once more, as a result of it’s all-consuming.
It’s a unending problem for me personally. I’ve a coach who helps me prioritise and say “no” to issues. she holds me accountable to give attention to what’s necessary.
For instance, I used to be on seven advisory boards in Asia. I used to be doing calls at 5am, 6am, 7am, 8am – not a lot enjoyable throughout winter within the UK. You get up, it’s darkish. You’ve completed 4 or 5 hours, and it’s nonetheless darkish.
So I’ve lowered the variety of zoom calls and stuff I’ve in Asia, which consumed a whole lot of my time.
Now I’ve someday in London, assembly human beings.
I’ve someday, which I’m attempting to maintain for myself.
Then I’ve two days, that are name days, which is usually on Mondays and Thursdays. Wednesday is an emails and catch-up form of day.
However to be trustworthy, I’m not that disciplined. I’m not one of the best instance of how to do that nicely.
The transcript has been edited for readability
