Local weather tech startups – corporations that dream up options to chop greenhouse fuel (GHG) emissions – have loved a heady rise during the last decade. However final 12 months, hobbled by financial uncertainty and geopolitical battle, investments within the sector plunged by 40 per cent, in accordance with skilled providers agency PwC.
Is that this still-young sector well worth the danger?
Up to now in 2024, local weather tech has proven resilience, with startups elevating US$8.1 billion within the first quarter, signalling the resurgence of a sector that appears like it’s right here to remain. However how can local weather tech startups go the gap and keep away from the pitfalls that bedevil so many younger corporations?
Becoming a member of the Eco-Enterprise Podcast is Steve Melhuish, a serial entrepreneur and enterprise builder who has invested in and nurtured over 20 local weather tech startups in Southeast Asia to this point. Melhuish pivoted to local weather tech in 2018, having constructed a profession within the digital, cellular and social area. He is maybe greatest recognized for co-founding actual property web site PropertyGuru, which has 40 million customers in 5 international locations and 1,300 workers.
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5 years in the past there was an enormous rush into EVs. Everybody wished to be Elon Musk. Now we’re seeing a resurgence in deal with the meals, agriculture and land-use area, which is the place 50 per cent of Southeast Asia’s emissions are.
Steve Melhuish, co-founder, Wavemaker Affect
It was Melhuish’s kids who impressed him to maneuver into the local weather area. “The extra I researched local weather, the extra fearful I bought in regards to the future for my youngsters,” he tells the Eco-Enterprise Podcast. “I believed I may simply retire and luxuriate in my life. Or I may look my youngsters within the eye sooner or later, and say I knew how unhealthy it was going to be, and I performed a small half in attempting to make the world a greater place.”
After stepping again from PropertyGuru, Melhuish cofounded Planet Rise, which invests in and helps corporations tackling local weather change and social inequality. Its portfolio contains Singapore-based clear dairy agency Turtle Tree Labs, Sama, which helps migrant staff in Singapore get a good deal, and Asia-focused sustainability publication Eco-Enterprise.
In 2021, Melhuish co-founded Wavemaker Affect, Asia’s first climate-tech enterprise construct fund, which co-founds, builds and invests in scalable local weather ventures. There may be “a humiliation of alternatives” in Southeast Asia to create what Melhuish calls “a hundred by 100” – corporations that generate US$100 million in income by eradicating 100 megatonnes (MT) of carbon emissions from the environment.
So which sectors are hottest for local weather tech startups in Southeast Asia, and what are the challenges confronted by entrepreneurs who wish to deal with local weather change and likewise generate profits?
Steve Melhuish, local weather tech entrepreneur and investor. Picture: Asiapropertyawards
Tune in as we talk about:
- Why PropertyGuru’s co-founder pivoted to local weather tech
- Why wager on local weather tech in Southeast Asia?
- What are the most popular developments in local weather tech?
- Tips on how to inform which local weather options really work?
- Frequent pitfalls in local weather tech
- Southeast Asia’s debt finance hole
- The “unending problem” of time-management for entrepreneurs
Full transcript:
You’re a serial entrepreneur, beginning out in property tech within the mid-2000s, if you co based PropertyGuru. Why the pivot to sustainability startups?
You’ve very kindly dated me within the 2000s. However I’m going again somewhat sooner than that, to the Nineties, and web, cellular and the digitisation of content material. I’ve been constructing companies in that area for many of my profession.
PropertyGuru, nevertheless, consumed about 11 years of my life, 24/7. Whereas rising it from zero to 1,500 throughout 5 markets, was extraordinarily taxing and worrying, my youngsters got here alongside. [Melhuish and his wife, Liz, had twins in 2012]
I missed their first three years, and bought a wake-up name on the twins’ third birthday. I realised that if I carried on operating the enterprise seven days every week, this was not according to being an ideal dad, clearly.
However latterly was PropertyGuru, which consumed about 11 years of my life – seven days every week, 24/7. In the course of the means of rising it from zero to 1,500 folks throughout 5 markets, which is extraordinarily taxing and worrying, my youngsters got here alongside [Melhuish and his wife, Liz, had twins in 2012].
I missed seeing them for the primary three years of their lives. And so I had a little bit of a get up name on their third birthday. I realised that if I carried on the best way I used to be operating the enterprise – seven days every week – this was not according to being an ideal dad, clearly.
So I made the dedication to my spouse to place in place a succession plan and take a step again.
So 2018, I used to be very lucky to have the ability to try this. I employed a CEO and handed over all of the operations to spend time with my household. I went on trip, spent a while with them, however I used to be additionally enthusiastic about what to do subsequent. All over the place I seemed, it felt like this entire local weather factor was sending me a message.
The local weather drum was beating louder and louder. And 2018 was a 12 months when excessive climate broke data for prices incurred and injury brought on – near US$300 billion. Greta [Thunberg] held a local weather strike that 12 months. Larry Fink wrote his first letter [on the importance of ESG investing] that 12 months. For the primary time, scientists as a group reached consensus that local weather change was man-made and accelerating.
The extra I researched it, the extra fearful I bought for my youngsters’ future. I had a alternative – I may retire and luxuriate in my life, or I may look my youngsters within the eye sooner or later, say I knew how unhealthy it could be and I performed a really small half in attempting to make the world a greater place.
In order that was when my journey began in local weather tech.
I wasn’t able to return to the startup area, so I believed how do I play a task on this all encompassing matter? Local weather is all the things – in all places you go is touched by local weather change.
From 2018 onwards, I invested in about 20 completely different corporations within the environmental and local weather area, attempting to enhance meals or meals waste, building, hospitality and manufacturing. I in a short time realised that doing this alone with simply my very own funds was not very sustainable. That’s when I began Wavemaker Affect.
Local weather tech ventures require numerous capital at an early stage within the life cycle and extra time to interrupt even and scale up. Additionally, just lately we’ve seen wild fluctuations out there. So why would anybody who’s not a “tree hugger” and is danger averse go down this path, notably in Asia?
I conform to a sure extent.
As with every sector or matter, issues go cold and warm. However I feel you’re proper, local weather tech requires a substantial quantity of capital. Notably within the US and Europe, there’s a robust regulatory surroundings driving funding into the sector. A whole bunch of billions of {dollars} will then naturally circulation into fixing a few of these issues – and the majority of that’s going into R&D and science, which is a long run wager.
Then you definately take a look at Asia, the place now we have comparatively weak web zero commitments and shoppers on the entire are extra fearful about eking out a residing or rising their way of life, getting electrical energy and telephones for the primary time, possibly even airconditioning for the primary time. There are a special set of pressures in Asia. So why would you even give it some thought [climate tech]?
Once we began Wavemaker Affect we wished to take a look at the place the alternatives are. Our analysis confirmed now we have all of the know-how we want right now to scale back emissions by 50 per cent. So the problem actually will not be a lot round inventing new know-how. Why don’t we have photo voltaic on all rooftops? Why isn’t wind deployed in all places? Why aren’t we extra power environment friendly? Why are we not doing extra of this form of stuff?
It actually boils right down to having the suitable financial incentives. Once you then begin to take a look at financial incentives, you begin to take a look at completely different stakeholders. You see that in Southeast Asia, the place there are many SMEs and micro SMEs and small mother and pop retailers, there’s an enormous quantity of alternative to extend productiveness.
There may be an financial alternative to, say, improve the yields of farmers, scale back the price of inputs, financing, and harvesting. There are many financial swimming pools and productiveness alternatives, which in case you add know-how, digitisation and finance, can play an enormous function in driving change.
So we went away and recognized the place the emissions have been, and located that fifty per cent of emissions have been within the agri and meals area. We then went deeper searching for alternatives to scale back emissions.
With rice, for instance, it’s a one gigatonne methane-producing business that feeds half the planet’s inhabitants and the sector is rising tremendous quick. However, simply by altering some practices, you possibly can scale back methane launch by 50 per cent, which is 500 megatonnes of emissions – about half of the emissions of the aviation business.
We constructed an organization which does that. How did we alter behaviour? We created incentives for rice farmers by reducing the price of the inputs – the seeds, fertiliser, pesticides – we diminished the price of financing, and we elevated their yields by altering to extra productive practices.
In order that they get extra income per hectare. We additionally bought a small quantity of offtake at a premium value. Long run, carbon credit can play a task as nicely – to extend the income we give to farmers to incentivise them much more.
I might say to anyone enthusiastic about Asia, notably in rising Asia, there’s a humiliation of alternatives, each from an emissions perspective, and likewise from a enterprise perspective to create what we name “100 by 100” – US$100 million income from decreasing 100 MT of emissions. We’ve constructed 10 of these corporations already. By this time subsequent 12 months, we’ll be shut to twenty.
You began Planet Rise in 2019 and Wavemaker Affect, Asia’s first local weather tech enterprise construct fund, in 2021. Inform us what has modified in regards to the local weather tech scene in Asia because you began out 5 years in the past.
Initially, I’d say I’m a relative beginner. I’ve been speaking to individuals who’ve been investing on this area for the final 10 or 15 years, they’ve already seen the growth and the bust. There was an enormous growth and bust within the early 2000s when everybody rushed into the clear tech area. It was the suitable concept, simply the fallacious timing.
Harvard Enterprise Assessment did a research of 10,000 startups and requested entrepreneurs what’s crucial factor [to assure success]. Is it a enterprise mannequin? Is it the founders? Is it the market? It boiled down to at least one massive factor – timing.
Then you definately begin to consider why is the timing good now versus possibly 5, 10, or 15 years in the past. As I stated beforehand, now we have all of the know-how to deploy now, it’s each cleaner and cheaper. The price of renewables has come down by 90 per cent and is cheaper usually than fossil gas, notably in case you take away the trillions of {dollars} of subsidies.
So the timing is sweet now as a result of the associated fee is decrease now. So that you’ve bought the suitable substances to have the ability to deploy. Secondly, consciousness [of climate change] is now significantly increased. We’re seeing much more proof each day of document temperatures, document floods, document wildfires. We’re seeing an rising frequency and ferocity of local weather impacts on issues like meals safety and migration. There’s an rising consciousness to behave – and act rapidly.
Now, there’s one thing like 93-94 per cent of the world’s GDP beneath web zero commitments. Sure, you possibly can argue it’s not sufficient and not occurring quick sufficient. However at the very least now there’s progress. Sure, we spent far too lengthy analysing textual content at COP to maintain the fossil gas business glad. However it’s transferring in the suitable path.
So now, the motion and timing feels proper.
And if I stand again and suppose what else has modified since I began in 2018, there’s much more out there expertise in Asia. Once we began Wavemaker Affect, we had folks from Boston Consulting Group, McKinsey, company enterprise builders, company organisations, taking 30 to 50 per cent pay cuts to hitch us. Fortunately, now we’re in a position to pay all of them at market charge.
So individuals are prepared to place their cash the place their mouths are. Notably the younger technology, who’re, in lots of circumstances, fairly purpose-driven. They’re saying: “I wish to make a aware determination, notably post-Covid. I wish to work for a corporation that has bought goal. I wish to make a distinction.”
After possibly 15 or 18 years of entrepreneurs constructing tech companies in Southeast Asia, we’ve now bought a panorama the place there are founders who’ve constructed one, two or generally three corporations already. They might have made billions, or possibly a couple of tens of millions they usually now wish to do one thing on this [climate tech] area.
There at the moment are increasingly funds targeted on nature, biodiversity and the surroundings… household workplaces like Silverstrand Capital [which invests in regenerative agriculture and nature-based solutions], local weather funds like Radical Fund and Carbonless Asia, in addition to present enterprise capital corporations (VCs) like Sequoia, Open House and AC Ventures now placing extra of their funds into inexperienced tech. There at the moment are extra accelerators like Entrepreneur First and Antler producing extra local weather corporations, and corporations like ours in enterprise constructing.
So there’s extra consciousness and visibility of the place alternatives are. These corporations aren’t simply fixing a local weather downside, they’re producing income. The businesses I’ve invested at the moment are producing something from US$10,000 to US$50 million and all the things in between. These are actual corporations, they’re producing revenues right now and producing a cleaner final result. Ten of my portfolio corporations all raised final 12 months – and that was in the midst of the funding winter. That tells me there’s extra curiosity and need to take a position on this area. Now it feels somewhat bit extra mainstream.
Inform us a bit about what the recent subjects at the moment are in local weather tech.
I can begin with what not to deal with. I feel there’s been a variety of funding and deal with deep tech, new R&D and science – which is able to take a number of a long time to come back to fruition.
There’s additionally a pure inclination for buyers and founders subsequently to deal with low hanging fruit, which seem like local weather tech corporations, however are literally pure software program corporations. For instance, the place an organization is concentrated purely on measurement and knowledge seize.
The pure inclination with extra conventional VCs is that they’ve been investing in web, digital and software program corporations. Now, they’re simply taking that method and making use of it to local weather.
For me, at the very least the best way I take a look at it, I personally don’t care who does what, so long as it’s having an impression of decreasing or capturing emissions within the quick time period. As a result of each second there’s 2,000 tonnes of CO2 equal going into the environment.
However software program by itself, I don’t suppose goes do it. Carbon credit on their very own aren’t going to do it. It’s like a get out of jail free card for lots of the massive polluters for my part.
What we have to deal with, I feel, is deploying what we have already got as rapidly as potential, and determine the incentives, whether or not it’s for farmers, or a manufacturing facility or building firm, to undertake this applied sciences at scale as rapidly as potential – and primarily that’s what we at Wavemaker Affect do.
The second lens to take a look at this although is the place the emissions are. What we noticed 5 – 6 years in the past was this massive rush into EVs. Everybody wished to be Elon Musk. And so 70 per cent of all the funding in Southeast Asia was going into the mobility area. However mobility was really about 12 per cent of emissions; 88 per cent of the emissions is elsewhere – and 50 per cent is within the meals, agriculture and land use area.
What we’re seeing in Southeast Asia, fortunately, is a resurgence in deal with the meals, agri and land-use change area as a result of in the end meals, agri and land-use and local weather are inextricably linked for a lot of causes. One is clearly the stress local weather change has on meals safety. Excessive warmth and rising seas, for instance, trigger soil salination and scale back yields. Over-fertilisation produces numerous nitrous oxide, which is a greenhouse fuel. It’s a vicious circle. As yields decline, extra fertiliser is used, and yields decline additional as soil high quality declines.
So I feel the meals, agri, land-use change is the place [climate tech] is hottest and it’s been underserved for so lengthy. There are various alternatives, not simply from an emissions perspective, but additionally financial alternatives. If you happen to may also help a farmer go from an revenue of US$100 to US$130 or $150, not solely does it have a transformational impression on their livelihoods, but additionally on group, training and healthcare.
But additionally, mitigation turns into adaptation and resilience. So not solely decreasing emissions, however you’re additionally strengthening the stakeholders to climate the impacts of local weather change by making them financially stronger.
There’s additionally an enormous quantity of agri and meals waste which is simply burnt or left to rot. However in case you can flip that into biochar, that may be fertiliser for farming, or used as biofuel to switch coal… these are all areas that we’ve constructed corporations within the final two and a half, three years now.
How are you aware which options work and which don’t, as an illustration carbon credit? A few of these are rising applied sciences, proper? And in addition what are the secrets and techniques to a local weather tech startup that actually goes the gap?
First, let’s simply contact on carbon credit, I feel they play a big function when it comes to funding issues like top quality nature-based options. We’d like a sustainable supply of finance to revive and preserve nature. So I’m not ‘dissing’ carbon credit fully.
What I dislike seeing although, is for instance, startups working very exhausting to construct, let’s say, electrical stoves to switch wooden fired stoves, that are safer, more healthy and fewer polluting and generate top quality carbon credit. However you get a big oil firm like Shell providing to purchase these credit cheaply for say, US$10 million prematurely.
A startup needing cash may have fun the US$10 million “win”. However in fact that doesn’t occur instantly, and takes time. By the best way, this locks in a very, actually low carbon credit score value right now whereas the market grows. And additionally permits the polluter an affordable alternative to offset the injury they’re inflicting [to the environment].
In order that’s why I don’t like carbon credit.
However as a software on the finish of the [carbon reduction] course of, or to speed up adoption of a inexperienced know-how, I feel they will play a vital function. In our rice mission, we scale back financing and enter prices, enhance yields, and offtake costs – and if we are able to get carbon credit as nicely, we are able to return that capital to the farmers, encourage extra participation within the programme and develop quickly from 100, to a thousand, then one million farmers.
The second a part of that query was, what are the secrets and techniques to a local weather tech startup that goes the gap, and likewise round untested know-how.
On day one [at Wavemaker Impact], we began with a clean piece of paper and we search for skilled entrepreneurs, who’ve constructed two or three corporations already. We’re not instructing folks grow to be an entrepreneur.
If now we have a alternative of working with a do-gooder – or tree-hugger in your phrases – and telling them we wish to construct a unicorn with you, versus somebody who is aware of scale corporations and do one thing within the local weather area, we’ll err extra on the facet of the entrepreneur who has demonstrated the flexibility to scale.
What we are attempting to do is assist them determine the largest alternative. So now we have a clean piece of paper and a workforce of three individuals who work alongside the entrepreneur for six months. Usually, we begin off with understanding the founder’s ikigai – their ardour, their curiosity. And we attempt to construct on that.
We then go and analysis. And by researching, we begin to uncover potential alternatives. We then begin speaking to potential stakeholders. They is likely to be folks with degraded land in Indonesia, or folks operating garment factories throughout Southeast Asia, and we perceive what their financial ache factors are. We don’t discuss to them about local weather, as a result of with the very best will on the planet, they don’t actually care as a result of they’re attempting to eke out a residing based mostly on what they’re doing in a micro-SME or SME.
Then we attempt to work out, how an answer can play a task in delivering financial alternative and likewise a inexperienced final result. And imagine it or not, there’s an enormous quantity of analysis in lots of circumstances on local weather impacts on deploying of a few of these applied sciences.
For instance, in case you substitute a diesel water pump for irrigating a discipline with a photo voltaic pump, you’re going to save lots of 4 tonnes of emissions. Then you definately realise if we are able to deploy 100,000 of those, that turns into half one million tonnes of prevented emissions from tried and examined applied sciences.
What isn’t tried and examined but is the enterprise mannequin, taking the know-how to scale and the finance – what does all of that seem like? And so throughout that six months, we’re testing issues and getting to a degree the place we’ve bought a minimal viable product – now we have a speculation and we’ve examined the place we predict there’s going to be 100 megatonnes [of CO2 removal] and US$100 million income alternative inside 10 years.
However invariably through the course of, you come up towards roadblocks, and study new insights and pivot in all probability two or thrice to seek out the suitable product market match.
Our job is to attempt to assist the founder discover that product-market match as rapidly as potential. As a result of as quickly as you’ve bought the product market match, you possibly can appeal to expertise, prospects and funding quite a bit sooner. However many of the corporations are producing income inside 12 months.
The primary one we did is now producing about US$7 million in income this 12 months and is EBITDA optimistic already in two international locations, and about to enter a 3rd nation. So you possibly can construct good, scalable companies utilizing this boring trial and take a look at course of.
Your investments aren’t at all times assured to repay, quick or long run proper? What’s the largest mistake you’ve made, and your best triumph to this point on this sector? Additionally, what do you watched are the largest errors you’ve seen others make on this area?
Initially, I’d say that constructing any startup to a degree the place it turns into profitable is a 10-year journey, minimal. However the massive caveat to my reply now could be, I’m solely 5 years into my very own journey, so I haven’t fairly bought there.
Nonetheless, I can share somewhat bit when it comes to, how I approached it initially and the way I method it now.
Initially, after I was transferring into this area, I used to be very “inexperienced” to the subject. I used to be studying. I’d meet folks and begin by saying “I’m targeted on local weather, and I wish to make investments on this area”. I might fall in love with the founders’ concepts, their passions, their goal, and be much less inflexible and strict about the potential alternatives.
A few of these early investments I made, out of the 22 or 23 thus far, have been in all probability extra “intestine”, or emotionally pushed and got here from a need to do good fairly than a need to do good and still have a huge impact.
What modified over time was to suppose extra about have a very massive impression.
I feel what has modified, from my perspective, is being somewhat bit extra disciplined across the founder or founders. Are they curious? Have they got the next EQ? Are they going out speaking to prospects each day and studying? As a result of the best way to discovering the product-market match and accelerating the corporate’s development comes from actually understanding the market, the shopper’s ache factors and addressing these ache factors.
Or do they know all of it? Do they take the view that “I don’t must know all this, I’m an skilled in my space.” That differentiates whether or not an organization will get invested in or not, from my perspective.
That goes even additional when it’s a science-based firm. Early on, I invested in a couple of deep tech, science-based corporations. And in lots of them, it’s only a scientist or an engineer so in love with their know-how, they only maintain bettering it, sprucing and gold-plating it. However it by no means will get commercialised. In order that’s in all probability the largest errors [made in the climate tech sector].
Fascinating you talked about the EQ of entrepreneurs, which maybe doesn’t get talked about sufficient on this area…
It’s probably the most elementary factor.
The entrepreneurs who’re consistently curious, asking questions, studying, listening, asking for recommendation, taking it on board – not all of it, in fact… They know that enterprise higher than anyone else – however are prepared to be challenged, to hear and have a dialogue and be curious…
If you happen to’ve bought a founder who thinks they know all of it, they’ve bought the very best know-how, the very best product on the planet and everybody ought to have it, then clearly it’s not going to work.
To get there, you must ask numerous silly questions, you must be actually humble and spend a variety of time with prospects and be curious.
When it comes to triumphs, I feel it’s in all probability somewhat bit too early for me to say.
How I’m taking a look at it’s, the businesses that may have the largest impression. I’ll in all probability get slammed for saying this, however I’m not so targeted on the monetary returns. I’m doing this trigger I wish to make a world higher place for my youngsters. So I very a lot method it from an impression perspective.
You’ve bought US$1 million {dollars} left in your again pocket. What kind of local weather tech would you spend money on and why?
I put a million {dollars} into Wavemaker Affect as a normal accomplice, as a result of I feel if we are able to construct 60 corporations, and a few of them grow to be 100 megaton alternatives, then it begins to seem like a gigatonne alternative, then two or three gigatonnes over time.
You squint and say, okay, possibly that will get to 10 per cent of GHG emissions, whereas the massive funds go into R&D and “rocket science” stuff, which hopefully will materialise and have a huge impact in 20, 30 years’ time.
Our focus is on know-how for emissions sequestration, or discount at scale right now. That means some sort of bodily product to soak up carbon. So all the businesses we’re investing in and constructing have some type of {hardware}. In the meantime the entire VC business is geared extra to the software program business and web, which in lots of circumstances is clearly simpler to scale.
If I’m going to the portfolio of all the inexperienced tech corporations I work with and ask: What’s your largest problem? They’ll say I would like a little bit of emotional assist as a founder, or I would like some assist with organisational growth or enterprise growth or funding.
That’s the identical for any startup. However what’s completely different a couple of local weather tech firm is the bodily {hardware}. Since you want {hardware} to both seize or scale back emissions. It’s bodily. Within the finance business right now, notably in Southeast Asia, there’s a spot round funding these companies with working capital or debt finance.
Sure, there’s a wall of VC cash. There are household workplaces, there’s early-stage, mid-stage, B2B, B2C, and so on. However there are not any corporations taking a look at debt finance but. And it’s the only largest decelerator [in this space].
These corporations could be prepared to pay 15-20 per cent curiosity on their cash, as a result of it’s significantly cheaper, fairly than taking VC funding and closely diluting their fairness.
Ideally, you’d have a really wholesome VC fairness financing business, and likewise very wholesome debt finance, working capital and stock financing. However the latter is lacking. So if anybody listening to this podcast is , I’d love to speak to them. As a result of these corporations want wherever between half one million and 5 million in debt finance. That will simply allow them to purchase the equipment, assemble and distribute it, fairly than use their valuable fairness cash, which doesn’t make sense in any respect.
One last item. I’m fascinated by the way you handle your time. How do you do what you do?
Initially, I do it actually, actually badly! I don’t get the stability proper. Which is why I do know I couldn’t simply do one other startup once more, as a result of it’s all-consuming.
It’s a unending problem for me personally. I’ve a coach who helps me prioritise and say “no” to issues. she holds me accountable to deal with what’s necessary.
For instance, I used to be on seven advisory boards in Asia. I used to be doing calls at 5am, 6am, 7am, 8am – not a lot enjoyable throughout winter within the UK. You get up, it’s darkish. You’ve accomplished 4 or 5 hours, and it’s nonetheless darkish.
So I’ve diminished the variety of zoom calls and stuff I’ve in Asia, which consumed a variety of my time.
Now I’ve in the future in London, assembly human beings.
I’ve in the future, which I’m attempting to maintain for myself.
Then I’ve two days, that are name days, which is usually on Mondays and Thursdays. Wednesday is an emails and catch-up sort of day.
However to be sincere, I’m not that disciplined. I’m not the very best instance of how to do that nicely.
The transcript has been edited for readability
