Balancing Renewables Requires Massive Grid Storage, However What Varieties? (India Seminar Slides & Transcript)

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Underneath the auspices of the India Sensible Grid Discussion board, the suppose tank based as an umbrella group over India’s 28 state utilities to offer thought management, share main practices, and convey worldwide insights to India, I’m delivering bi-weekly webinars framed by the Brief Record of Local weather Actions That Will Work. With the glories of on-line recordings and AI transcription instruments, it’s comparatively simple to share each the transcript, and in addition the slides that I used, so I’m making a behavior of it.

Most just lately, I held a seminar n the theme of storage applied sciences the grid. For many who choose talk-talk to read-read, right here’s the recorded video of the presentation and dialogue.

Reji Kumar Pillai (RKP): Good morning, good afternoon, good night to all of the contributors from world wide. My pleasure to welcome you all for this fourth version of this webinar sequence. As we speak we’ll be speaking about power storage. Many years in the past, after we studied electrical engineering, we have been taught {that electrical} power can’t be saved. It must be that era and demand must be marched completely in each cycle. However storage, as completely different storage applied sciences have been, we’ve been utilizing for a number of many years, a lot earlier than that. So pumped hydro storage is historically used it, though its effectivity is far much less 55% to 70%. Many of the pump storage crops working the power value arbitration, although they’re nonetheless viable. When your surplus power, which is accessible at two cent and at peak hours, you possibly can promote it at 1015 $0.20. In order that turns into viable commercially.

However the issues with pump storage hydro is that it’s extremely geographically dependent, though now individuals began making completely different programs for making two reservoirs on the two elevations artificially. But it surely takes a very long time, lengthy, large capex and also you want water. Additionally, there are historically many different electrochemical applied sciences for power storage, obligatory applied sciences for power storage, a number of of them. In 2018 2019, India’s market discussion board was tasked with the task of getting ready a power storage rotoma for India by 2032. What could be our power storage requirement for the grid, primarily based on the renewable power program which we have been pursuing at that cut-off date. So we did modeling research, we examined completely different areas, completely different states of India, and eventually we ready an power storage roadmap, which was adopted by Nidhi Ayog, our coverage suppose tank and MNRE MoP and Central Metropolis Authority.

It was issued, it’s a public doc. It’s obtainable on all this web site, together with ISDF web site. So through the course of that preparation of that power storage roadmap. We examined deeply the technological challenges, business viability of every of the applied sciences, the mechanical, electrical, electrochemical, all applied sciences, from flywheel to all the things we study and what’s instantly viable within the close to future by 2032. This was revealed in 2019. By the 2032 timeframe on this decade, what will be commercially viable, technically viable. So we had lastly come to the conclusion that we are going to suggest solely batteries at this cut-off date. The reason is there, it attracted plenty of criticism from many weak individuals, saying that you simply didn’t think about pumped hydro, you didn’t think about this, that. So pump on the pump hydro. There are greater than two dozen initiatives which have been detailed.

Undertaking experiences have been obtainable for the final three many years, however no work has occurred. Just one challenge which was accomplished someday in 2005 2006 in West Bengal. That’s solely final main pumped hydro storage plant commissioned. And now I’m informed that on this month or subsequent month in Kerala, one other plant will probably be commissioned. So taking a look at a number of challenges and the quick want for India was pursuing a program of 175 gigawatt of renewable power by 2022. Now it’s 24. We have already got near 140. Photo voltaic plus wind is about 135 as we speak. So we’d like, the necessity for storage is imminent. And this sort of know-how, which has a number of dependencies, is tough to connect with the grid or deploy it. So we discovered at that cut-off date in 2018 to 19, after we lastly determined we’ll suggest battery power storage for the grid assist.

Instantly we assess the value. That’s the time when the battery costs had simply come down beneath $200 per kilowatt hour. 2018 and 2019, it was someplace at that quantity, $190 per kilowatt hour. We discovered that it’ll additional go down. It is going to come someplace close to 100 {dollars} by 2025. That’s what we had in one of the best estimates we had that point, it would come plus as much as 100. However simply after Covid, it has already gone beneath $100. And early this 12 months, the world’s largest battery manufacturing firm, CATL, lowered their costs by 40%. It has now come all the way down to 50 LFP battery costs. $56 per megawatt hour kilowatt hour $56 per kilowatt hour. So after we put together the power storage roadmap, as we speak’s value is nearly one fourth.

In order we stand, most people are agreeing to the truth that the battery is the best way ahead, though its life just isn’t very lengthy as we count on. A pump storage hydro plant runs for 50 years, 70 years. Hundred years. A battery could provide you with a most of ten years or twelve years. However the benefit with batteries is that it may be deployed in lower than one 12 months, even in even 100 megawatt, 500 megawatt battery power storage programs could be deployed on the most twelve to 18 months. And in lots of instances it has been confirmed that such giant tons of of megawatt scale BSS crops are constructed in lower than 100 years and could be moved from one location to a different location. It may be used for various functions. So it has its versatility. However as we speak I received’t take a lot time.

So there are lots of new applied sciences which you’ll hear about. Simply earlier than the COVID a brand new set of gravity storage, individuals have been going round elevating capital. So not a single profitable gravity storage challenge has been elevated but. Though one such firm, the entrance runner, is claiming that they’ve commissioned a plant in China and so they have been to do it in Switzerland. They usually declare that they’ve commissioned a plant in China very just lately, someday in November or December, and a few different individuals within the UK and in America are additionally engaged on the gravity storage. We’ve but to see the actual efficiency of that. What’s the spherical journey effectivity? We additionally see many individuals doing pumped thermal power storage. I count on and hope that know-how will turn out to be viable commercially someday a minimum of within the subsequent decade.

And there are lots of different issues within the labs, completely different persons are working all throughout the globe. We preserve an in depth watch of what’s occurring the place the most recent, which I see is supercritical CO2 primarily based brighten cycle. So which is one other know-how which we hope that possibly within the subsequent 5 to 10 years it will likely be commercially viable to deploy. So whereas all these are of quick want, the speed at which the renewables are growing on the grid, all over the place on earth, India, in Europe, in America, Australia, each a part of the world, the photo voltaic and wind is growing at a sooner tempo. So we have now at present about twelve gigawatt of renewables related to the distribution grid. And really just lately, our prime minister introduced a program of 10 million rooftop photo voltaic in simply three years, with a cumulative capability of 30 gigawatt.

So how and that 30 gigawatt of 10 million rooftop will occur? It might probably occur in three or 4 years. However to handle that, we’d like storage in each feeder or each substation. Distribution corporations are going to wrestle to handle this stuff. So I’ll hand over the stage to Michael. He’ll discuss completely different know-how storage applied sciences for various functions. Over to Michael. Sorry I took extra time as we speak.

Michael Barnard (MB): Thanks, Reji. And thanks ISFG. As we’re 21 minutes into the hour, I will probably be going by way of these slides extra rapidly than I anticipated. So let’s break this down into chunks. So we perceive, Reji is totally proper, that the demand level as we speak is for stuff that battery know-how works properly. What we have now is a case the place we’d like frequency and voltage ancillary providers, the place there’s response time have to be in milliseconds, and we’d like peaker and photo voltaic time shifting from the day in a while, we’re going to want longer period storage, the place the power and energy are decoupled, and we’re going to want strategic reserves for the ten to 100 12 months time frames when there’s no wind and there’s no photo voltaic for an prolonged time frame.

Much less of a priority India, the place the photo voltaic is way more constant, however nonetheless one thing that must be deliberate for. And so the query turns into, how do we offer storage of various sorts throughout these applied sciences?

One of many key issues we wish to try to do, and one of many benefits of the emergence of storage is that curve within the again, that jagged line, is a typical curve from India’s energy demand. From a examine that was executed a couple of years in the past, it’s most likely modified now. The duck curve line, that black line signifies that as photo voltaic comes on-line and so they mid at noon, demand and provide change considerably. And so what we have now is a nighttime drop when there’s probably plenty of wind on the grid.

And that wind can be utilized to shift demand for charging autos, for buffering truck stops, for heating scorching water, for properties and for business buildings, and for charging autos of all types. It may also be used to place into grid storage. However the duck curve may also be a time for shifting demand to that noon photo voltaic peak or to atom peak storage. And the intent is to flatten that large spike over on the best. That black line throughout the highest signifies a excessive diploma of distribution grid utilization. Proper now, in the US and Europe, grid utilization is 50. Distribution grid utilization is 50% to 60% India, per the sources I’ve, it’s decrease attributable to another constraints. Nevertheless, that’s a. You realize, the fabric I had just isn’t essentially updated. Maybe Reji, on the finish of this, can articulate it.

The worth proposition, one of many worth propositions, is that storage and this demand shifting can allow utilities to get much more out of the distribution grid property and thus have a decrease price per buyer. For the distribution grid facet of issues, it’s a way more viable, helpful factor.

As Reji stated, there’s plenty of power applied sciences. It is a framework I have a tendency to make use of to speak the place there’s plenty of hype up within the attractive and silly house digital hydrogen for power and all this stuff is up within the attractive and silly house. However that sensible column will get to the guts of the matter proper now. Grid lithium ion particularly. However rising chemistries like LFP are getting plenty of consideration.

They’re simple to place in, they’re more and more low-cost, however they couple power and energy that’s appropriate for that shorter interval, their present period. As we transfer ahead, power and energy goes to turn out to be disadvantageous. We’ve to place in an increasing number of and extra batteries simply to get the power. And that energy functionality is completely different. So I’ll discuss a bit extra about that later. However redox circulation is there. We’ve bought sensible charging for demand administration. We’ve bought pumped hydro, passive hydro. We’re damned. They’re not handled as baseload, however as on demand peakers. So we enable them to be extra versatile and nature fills them, after which we’d like some strategic reserves.

And my desire is capturing the methane that comes out of our present human prompted actions, like landfills and dairy barns and different issues, and placing that slowly into strategic methane reserves and simply operating mixed cycle fuel era crops. And naturally, warmth storage. There’s some stuff the place it’s attractive and silly, like producing electrical energy from it, however it’s fairly good for lots of issues, which we’re not utilizing it for. It’s an important place the place if you happen to want scorching water through the day for cooking, cleansing, and you warmth it at evening when the electrical energy is affordable with a warmth pump, you’ve bought an amazing optimization simply with that know-how.

So I’m way more bullish on pumped hydro than Reji is. Statistics I’ve seen on properly designed and properly managed pumped hydro point out they’re 80% spherical journey, been on the grid for a very long time and they’re nonetheless dominant by way of grid storage from an influence, and particularly in an power perspective, that’s not a really outdated circle diagram pie chart on the facet, 98% of the deployed grid storage was pumped hydro. The IEA’s most up-to-date report on battery storage signifies huge deployment of batteries, however that’s virtually fully inside electrical autos, not on grid storage. So whereas we’re seeing plenty of consideration paid and plenty of worth from battery electrical, it’s not. It’s a little bit of an availability bias by way of what we’re really seeing, by way of the way it’s really coming about.

Once I discuss to battery storage and grid storage individuals within the UK, for instance, like Mark Wilson, he’s creating each pumped hydro and batteries. And his perspective for the UK, the battery facet, the cell primarily based battery facet, they’re going to be full with the necessity for that part of storage in 2028 or 2029 at present velocity. In different phrases, whereas they’re going to place, they’re going to have the ability to fulfill that quick time period want utterly and do it rapidly. But it surely’s a brief time period alternative. And that’s my perspective on plenty of this, is that there’s going to be a degree the place the battery’s coupling of power and energy falls down. Now, I’m challenged on that in a few methods, which I’ll converse to on the finish, as a result of there’s a altering dynamic.

We additionally discuss vehicle-to-grid. Each time I discuss storage, individuals say, properly, we’re going to have all these batteries within the autos, which we do. We’re going to have a number of them. My estimation is we’re going to have 20 gigawatt hours of batteries in electrical autos, electrical private autos in the US alone by 2050. Rather a lot. However there’s challenges there. Now, I believe that the sensible charging prime line goes to dominate. Principally, India’s already bought a time of use billing that’s pushing individuals into the photo voltaic peaks, into the photo voltaic intervals and into nighttime by setting a pricing precisely the best factor to do. However I’ll say for India’s sake.

Due to behavioral economics, the best way that individuals really suppose, individuals, that type of works, and it type of doesn’t. One of the simplest ways is that if the value sign is shipped to an automatic answer which optimizes for the client round a coverage which they need to choose out of. In different phrases, sensible chargers say, except the client tells me in any other case, I’m going to solely cost in intervals when there’s excessive photo voltaic, there’s low prices of electrical energy. For one cause or one other, that automation coupling wants to begin rising. A few of that for multi unit residential buildings with electrical car charging within the parkades turns into automated as a result of sometimes the multi unit resident is paying for the electrical energy and so they’re paying for that energy peak.

I’m paying quite a bit in my constructing of roughly 300 or 400 residents, we pay about 25% of our electrical energy invoice on the energy peak worth. And in order we discover charging for the constructing, we’re explicitly taking a look at sensible prices that push that out. So a few of them will simply happen naturally. Then there’s the chance for aggregated giant organizations that present charging and fleets to work with utilities to tie into demand administration options that the electrical energy administration programs of utilities already use to contract with them for lowered charging energy in occasions of excessive demand. As a possibility.

However there’s additionally a possibility for, with the decreasing battery costs for fleets and truck stops and different excessive demand areas to construct sufficient batteries that they’ll really cost them at a constant energy degree for twenty-four hours and supply all of the providers, successfully turning the battery right into a flat power demand, a really constant power demand, which utilities have a distinct worth for. The most affordable charges in lots of jurisdictions are for industrial demand energy, which is totally constant. Now, that’s Quebec, the place there’s a number of hydro. There’s some fascinating modeling to be executed round that. And car to grid and car to house are simply decrease chance issues. They’re very popular. And North America, the place all people has a indifferent house and all people has a driveway and so they’re not in a multi unit residential constructing.

However that doesn’t describe many of the world and that doesn’t describe most of India. And in order that car to grid, maybe in business fleet views, however I believe not there as a result of they want the electrical energy to do their jobs.

In order I take a look at grid storage applied sciences, I abstracted up the attributes of storage to find out the necessities as we predict throughout them. So how lengthy does storage final, that power versus energy flexibility, which turns into necessary later within the cycle of decarbonization, the associated fee per megawatt longevity, as talked about, the cycle depend, how lengthy does it final? What number of occasions are you able to whip by way of it earlier than it begins to degrade? How lengthy does it takes to construct viability at a number of scales?

As a result of I’m going to say it very clearly, if you happen to’re not speaking a gigawatt of energy or approaching a gigawatt of energy, and ten, , 5 to 10 to 30 gigawatt hours of power, why hassle with pumped hydro? It’s a giant factor. Maturity, environmental dangers, present deployment. How typically is, like I stated, pumped hydro is over, and that geographical flexibility factor. So we’ve bought fairly good protection with pumped hydro, and it’s why I’m bullish on it. It’s bought all these attributes which make it priceless, and it’s not one thing we’d like proper now as a lot, as a result of that power requirement is completely different. We’d like the facility and we’d like the grid stabilization as we speak. So I utterly agree with Reji and the ISGS modeling about what India ought to be doing within the quick time period. I disagree in the long run.

So the following one is lithium ion batteries, however fairly in another way. Spiky. Now, this chart is a take a look at the associated fee per megawatt hour. This chart is from a few years in the past. And I, like all people, am shocked by how briskly battery costs have been plummeting. We’re all even battery optimists as I’m, I’m strongly a battery optimist. Not saying something in opposition to lithium ion as a grid storage know-how, or lithium phosphate or different chemistries. It’s simply the value level reductions are thoughts boggling. So after I redo this, as I redo my projections each two to 4 years, as new knowledge is available in, I’m undoubtedly going to make this a bit completely different. I’m going to evaluate that price. Longevity is an issue. Pumped hydro, it’s 100 to 125 12 months asset. It’s not costly to keep up.

And each ten years or so, ten to fifteen years, you’re going to have to interchange the cell primarily based battery options. Nice if you happen to want the facility and instantaneity, not so nice if you happen to want the opposite stuff. It’s mineable and all that stuff. And so we begin seeing the development time being very viable. The viability at a number of scales is so necessary. One of many causes we preserve being shocked is that something that may go into a private electrical car of any sort will get constructed by the hundreds of thousands and billions of cells, and that drives down the associated fee per cell tremendously. So, a number of nice stuff. Present deployment is. There’s definitely extra present deployment of grid storage, however nowhere close to the extent of precise energy from pumped hydra.

Redox circulation batteries are fascinating. They’re one other set. You realize, they’re principally one thing like a gasoline cell between a few tanks of chemical substances that as you set electrical energy in there, chemical substances circulation by way of, and it’s the identical factor as a small cell primarily based battery, however it decouples power and energy once more. So, as we transfer into the worth proposition of redox, circulation batteries enhance, and so they have geographical flexibility, which pumped Hydra doesn’t. And I’m going to say the next very rigorously. If we didn’t have excessive voltage, direct present transmission, I might care extra about geographical flexibility. However we’re transmitting energy in all places anyway by way of extremely environment friendly cables. So the truth that you don’t have pumped hydro services obtainable in New Delhi doesn’t actually appear as related to me. You simply must construct the transmission, and India is definitely good at that.

So this stuff, for me, say that for the applied sciences of grid storage of the longer term, pumped redox circulation batteries, pumped hydro and lithium ion batteries, or cell primarily based batteries are going to be dominant. Now that value level adjustments. I’ve had this dialogue with infrastructure funds in Europe. They’ve requested me, as this stuff get cheaper, does it actually simply not matter? Will we simply put an increasing number of batteries on? As a result of we will waste the facility functionality, however the power is cheaper? And that’s a extremely good query. I’ve adjusted this barely. I’ve to return again to that and give it some thought extra. The purpose right here is, as we undergo this, I’m not addressing on this the strategic reserves, however pump tides that shift in power necessities versus energy necessities as we transfer by way of the tip recreation of decarbonization turns into necessary.

You discover you’re seeing the vast majority of the rise right here. However I may even say the next. The massive enhance right here. One of many issues I love to do after I take a look at issues is ask what’s China doing at scale? As a result of no matter they’re doing at scale and at velocity might be the best reply within the majority of conditions exterior of China, simply because they’re forward of the curve on a few of this. Electrified buses. Yeah, okay. Electrical buses are considered one of our scorching gasoline cell buses as a result of they’ve 600,000 electrical buses and 3000 4000 gasoline cell buses. Most likely a sign that electrical buses are match for function. And in China they have already got, since I constructed this preliminary projection, added 50 gigawatts of energy, presumably a terawatt hour of power storage within the type of operational pumped hydro.

They usually have one other 365 gigawatts of energy, presumably representing eight or twelve terawatt hours of power. As we take a look at China, we are saying, they’re going large, very large on pumped hydro. That’s an indicator that we ought to be eager about pumped hydro as a strategic factor for the long run power storage, as a result of we be taught from the people who find themselves doing it proper. And China is doing plenty of stuff proper. In order that’s a counter argument to dismissal of pumped hydro, in my view.

After which there’s the opposite factor. You realize, India is simply not a spot the place this, just like the prairies in the US, or the northern steppes the place the Ukraine is in Europe, it’s not all flat. There’s plenty of pumped hydro property, assets that could possibly be taken benefit of. That is the Australian Nationwide College’s greenfield pumped hydro.

Pumped hydro useful resource map for India and surrounding space. And all of these dots you possibly can see over right here, , 5 terawatt hours, 200 hours, , 1.5 terawatt hours. You realize, there’s plenty of power storage obtainable in these useful resource areas. And that is particularly for closed loop off river pumped hydro. So not damming a river or a stream, however discovering a spot the place you’ve bought 400 meters or extra of head peak. And you’ll put a bit dam on a gully up within the hill and you’ll construct, dig a gap down on the backside, dig a tunnel between them and get power storage at 500 meters of head peak with 1 km² pond on the prime of the underside, holding a gigalitre of water and placing it up and down. That’s a gigawatt hour of power.

The useful resource potential so as to add gigawatt hours is simply making the reservoir greater, and that’s cheaper to make reservoirs greater than virtually anything we do on this context. In order we get into power storage, versus the reactive, the quick energy response sort of factor, my perspective is that pumped hydro goes to, as it’s in China, see a major resurgence. However that doesn’t imply that I do know India’s situations properly sufficient to say that there are all these completely different coloured dots that aren’t proper the place individuals have properties and villages and present makes use of. And so I don’t know that. What I do know is that ANU checked out near transmission off of protected lands, 400 meters or extra of head peak, and the supply of prime and backside reservoirs inside a few kilometers of each other. So, fairly good place to begin.

They discovered 100 occasions the useful resource capability of pumped hydro as whole power storage wants for the world. And it’s simply water. It doesn’t eat water, it doesn’t need to be purified. Water goes up, it goes down, the water will get bored. Sturdy worth proposition for that.

There’s additionally brownfields. These are locations the place there are present mines or present services that may be transformed to pumped hydro, and to offer that worth proposition. In some locations the place there’s been plenty of mining, as in Quebec, for instance, engaged on a pumped hydro challenge, which takes a few outdated asbestos open pit mines and is contemplating repurposing them for that function. They usually’ve bought the potential for a gigawatt of energy and 26 gigawatt hours of storage conveniently positioned on the grid.

The numbers get very staggering with pumped hydro fairly rapidly, and it’s stuff that ordinary that individuals can do fairly simply. However removed from a slam dunk, as Reji factors out, I take a look at this and I share How Massive Issues Get Achieved.

I used to be really talking to Oxford International Tasks, the group that Bent Flyvbjerg based simply yesterday, about pumped hydro and varied issues. However cell primarily based battery storage, whereas they don’t have them of their 25 classes of megaprojects, they’ve over 16,000 megaprojects, over a billion {dollars}, US {dollars} of price of their knowledge set. Now, they’ve been assembling it since 1998 or so, and so they don’t have grid storage categorized but. So cell primarily based battery storage just isn’t current, however it’s going to be up there. Photo voltaic and wind energy, it’s very low threat to deploy.

Famously, any individual in Australia stated, hey, Elon Musk, are you able to get us some battery storage? And Elon stated, how a lot? 100 MW energy. And Elon stated, three months or it’s free. That’s like photo voltaic. It’s that simple. Pour slab. Drop some delivery containers on, wire them on. The dangers are low. Alternatively, as I have interaction round a few of that, as I’m partaking with the consumer round potential de-risking of a pumped hydro facility with all that power, it entails tunneling and dams, which have longer lengthy tailed threat, extra issues can go fallacious. Anytime you dig underground, there’s the danger of operating into an igneous intrusion of rock, which is far more durable than the encircling floor. And that jams. Tunnel boring machines stomp a few of their tracks. Snowy River Two has executed a really poor job of de-risking their tunneling.

They didn’t do ample geological surveys, they didn’t know what was down there. And in consequence, their tunnel boring machine is caught. It’s a 150 meters lengthy machine and it’s caught 195 meters into tunneling. So there are dangers related to that. But it surely’s a strategic useful resource. It’s a way more strategic infrastructure play than batteries. I believe India actually ought to rethink and begin saying strategically, what are our power necessities versus our energy necessities? And the way will we begin constructing our power necessities now whereas fulfilling our energy necessities within the quick time period of the batteries? As a result of I believe that’s going to be a cut up as we transfer ahead. In order that was as fast as I may get by way of these slides. So let’s flip it again to Reji for moderation.

RKP: At first, one of many slides you talked about, car to grid within the fullest section. That’s one thing which we’re superb at in India. We hope it would work and we’re going to do an indication challenge. So that is AC V 2G. We’re very, what you name within the final levels of preparation for doing it, possibly that 4 autos for suv’s will probably be retrofitted with bi directional prices contained in the automotive in addition to bi directional prices related to the grid. And 4 completely different utilities India, three in Delhi, one in Kerala, will probably be managing this for a. I imply, from July onwards, this will probably be on trial for six months.

So we hope that is one thing which we will actually leverage for nice flexibility as a result of hundreds of thousands of autos will probably be sitting through the day, through the night, peak hours. So we’re additionally going to have a differential tariff for electrical energy as we speak. Residential individuals pay, and many of the business individuals additionally pay flat tariffs throughout the month. No matter what time you employ electrical energy, your tariff is flat, however it’s going to vary authorities. As most of , India is rolling out 250 million sensible meters. When the sensible metering rollout is accomplished, the federal government has already stated the regulators could go for differential tariffs. So within the afternoon hours, when we have now increased photo voltaic era, when there may be surplus energy on the grid, we should always give rebates. As much as 20% rebate could be given. That’s the time most of the electrical autos can cost.

And later within the night, as much as 20% surcharge could be levied over and above the prevailing tariff. That is one thing which we had executed a really fascinating pilot challenge two years in the past in one of many states, one of many cities in north India, we discovered it fairly fascinating. I imply, not with V 2g, however with the giving value alerts, providing surplus era awards, giving rebate and peak hours, making residing a surcharge. This went fairly properly. So anyway, we received’t divert from the topic, the V 2g half. We expect there’s a potential that may be leveraged for nice flexibility, and we’re demonstrating that very quickly.

MB: My arguments in opposition to car to grid largely come all the way down to the cognitive facet of it. There’s, as I take a look at what Kahneman received his Nobel Prize for, it was prospect principle. Prospect principle says that individuals worth one thing. They worth potential loss greater than they worth potential acquire. They usually, , it’s a part of the fact that something you personal, you worth way more extremely than different individuals do. This falls into actual property. There’s an entire bunch of psychology round this, however what meaning is that for individuals who have electrical energy of their autos, they think about that to be theirs, and so they think about it to be of upper worth than most utilities will more often than not. And they’ll concern lack of vary, they’ll concern lack of utility of their autos.

And so there’s circumstances below which that may work. However in my modeling of the particular use of autos, steadily, the vast majority of the autos that are low use autos, private electrical autos, which, by the best way, are fewer India than in North America and west, these are steadily touring in, these are steadily touring throughout peak demand hours, and so they’re steadily again house moderating. Yeah. And the individuals with these autos is not going to really feel they’re priceless. Now, that stated, there’s, , for fleets, I’ve been taking a look at plenty of fleets, and the expectation for lots of fleets could be very excessive utilization energy now, if there’s a fleet which is a business fleet, which is solely a daytime hours business fleet, that’s a powerful alternative for some nighttime stuff.

However I nonetheless think about autos to be extra of a requirement administration alternative for utilities than a car to grid alternative. I’ve confirmed fallacious. I’ve been confirmed fallacious on different issues as properly.

RKP: So the 2 issues, one, the present demonstration which you’re doing India is with the suv’s, the small suv’s which has 40 kilowatt hour batteries. And as chances are you’ll be realizing, as others could be realizing in V 2G, usually we do shallow charging and discharging. Shallow discharging, it by no means goes beneath 30%. So we count on that individuals don’t have. There are sufficient use instances, there are sufficient pilot initiatives and research which say that battery participation in V 2G just isn’t going to kill the battery sooner than its guarantee life. So there are some research which say that, actually, the autos that are taking part see battery life have improved. Actually, the sluggish shallow charging and discharging have a massaging impact on the battery and its life is prolonged.

One other very fascinating case which we’re doing, and I’m, is that we’re additionally very eager on. Though they couldn’t do a lot due to the electrical energy, regulators haven’t been ahead wanting. It’s coal bus electrification. There are literally thousands of college buses in every metropolis, which Reji runs for two hours within the morning.

MB: As we start thinking about the facility versus power, we start thinking about terawatt hours of power storage. We have to scale the power way more than the facility. And that’s to the purpose the place cell primarily based batteries have a decent coupling of energy and power and so decoupling that redox circulation batteries are a part of that answer. Pumped hydro, in my view, is a part of that answer as properly. However sometimes you’re nonetheless going to solely get all the way down to a restrict of maybe 72 hours for pumped hydro. Given the potential. As we glance ahead, the. My perspective is we’re already storing power in bulk. In most nations, it’s strategic reserves of pure fuel. Pure fuel is simply methane.

As we transfer ahead, it is sensible to me to divert the methane that we create biologically from organic processes in our financial system, divert that into the long run pure fuel storage services we all know, methane is far much less leaky than hydrogen and methane. Anthropogenic biomethane is a big local weather drawback. And so diverting that serves each local weather change actions by way of decreasing methane emissions, but additionally gives a few of that strategic power reserve between.

To reply the second query, differentiating between greenfield and brownfield pumped hydro. Greenfield pumped hydro builds the reservoirs the place there aren’t any reservoirs. Builds one up on the highest of the hill. We’re in a gully, one on the backside of the hill, and construct a pond between them. A brownfield pumped hydro. There are two classes of that.

The primary is the place there are present open pit mines or mines which might be appropriate for it. You have already got reservoirs with peak differentiation between them. Presumably not each reservoirs, however you’ve a part of the infrastructure constructed. It is advisable do some engineering to stabilize the slopes to make it capable of cope with shifting water, these sorts of issues. However you’ve bought parted infrastructure and you’ll rebuild it. The second class are some present dams which might be appropriate for including pumped hydro functionality to. This one is an fascinating one since you want a really large lake downstream from the dam to ensure that that to work. When you’re simply taking it from the river, that doesn’t make a lot sense. So that you want a giant reservoir of water downstream that’s pure largely for that to work. There are some variants there, however these are the 2 classes.

Present mining websites which might be tapped out and present dams the place it’s viable at pumped hydro from a nuclear energy plant. I’m going to say that’s not an power storage answer query and we can have extra of a dialogue. And one other factor, I’ll simply say that module, nuclear energy crops are within the attractive and silly class and depart it at that.

So storage is required in EVs, storage is required within the grid. Storage appears to take some time, and can’t be absolutely catered. Storage must be deployed strategically. How this problem of storage deployment could be dealt with, to paraphrase what I perceive is being requested, there’s all these kinds of period and velocity of response to storage and there’s storage behind the meter, there’s storage in autos. The query I consider is how can we work out what to do? And India has already executed the primary reduce at this ISGF lender. Reji has executed a examine and so they stated, okay, right here’s the patterns. I’ve executed the examine and stated, right here’s the patterns.

The necessity is to redo these research and say, okay, with this emergent understanding of main practices from completely different components of the world, with the decline in battery prices, with the expansion of pumped hydro, in main geographies which might be main in a few of these issues, revisit that and say, okay, right here’s what we thought was true. Right here’s what we predict is true. Now then, in fact, as you progress ahead, it’s a coverage and technique query. So a few of that’s pure value alerts, as Reji was speaking about, with rebates and time of use, billing and sensible metering, which drives habits to a sure level. Others of it’s recognizing limits, attempting to get people who’re messy brains to do something of their finest curiosity economically, as a result of we’re not rational actors.

We do stuff as a result of it feels good for the time being and getting a few of that automated in order that there’s an automated demand administration facet that diminishes these prices. Others of it’s incenting behind the meter batteries. The instance that I provide you with is, I used to be wanting on the unfold within the west of heavy responsibility trucking, what they name class eight autos in North America, 29 to 49 tons, street autos with freight on them. And in that case, as we take a look at that, take a look at the power demand and the facility demand in truck stops, low-cost batteries make that rather more viable, and also you don’t need to. Whereas a 5 megawatt energy grid connection can take years to construct, a, , 500 kilowatt hour grid connection is straightforward.

If a battery buffer can provide you 24 hours of power at a gentle state after which ship that energy to vehicles. Now, with the cheaper batteries, we have now that battery buffering alternative for locations the place there’s spiky energy calls for, and so we will commerce battery storage for that. And that’s the type of factor that will get into the following spherical of storage. Vitality storage methods and organizations just like the ISGF and the utilities India must spend time considering by way of this new world we inhabit and say, okay, on this world, what are our long run wants after we want them? What are our alternatives for buffering? How can we keep away from grid distribution, grid prices driving up our capability components in our distribution grid, after which assembling a bunch of leverage from incentives to laws to flat out shopping for and constructing infrastructure. It’s non trivial.

So query six can be not about power storage. And so I’m going to defer that one power storage simply just because we have now the facility facet of it and stuff. I would like to stay to the storage subject this time round within the curiosity of time. We’re on the hour.

So I’ve heard lithium ion batteries are above 45 levels celsius. Celsius has points for electrical autos. Is it so? Sure. There are thermal administration necessities for electrical car batteries. That’s why Tesla began placing warmth pumps of their vehicles and suvs fairly some time in the past. They have been main in that regard as a result of they found that thermal administration of the battery bundle led to higher energy effectivity and higher power effectivity. And so the warmth pump can transfer that round.

If in case you have a poorly constructed lithium ion battery pack with out thermal administration, it’s extra of an issue within the case of. However I’ll examine and distinction diesel engines. A diesel engine has to warmth up in a colder local weather. A diesel engine must be heated with a block heater for an prolonged time frame earlier than the situations are proper for it to begin. And you are able to do the identical with the IM battery pack. When you’re in a colder local weather or a warmer local weather, you possibly can. And you’re going to drive in ten minutes. You begin that thermal administration, after which once you begin the automotive and are shifting the automotive, the battery is on the proper temperature, the optimum temperature, and it’s not a giant energy drain as a result of it’s warmth pumps. So all manageable.

However crappy vehicles and crappy lithium and battery packs steadily have crappy power administration. So concentrate on that.

Are there any laws and requirements to look out for when taking a look at BSS, product or challenge developments? If not, what areas do you see them come up sooner or later? So laws and requirements as that is an India targeted factor. I don’t know the specifics, laws and requirements inside India. And so Reji, maybe you may area this query.

RKP: We’ve requirements. The Bureau of Indian Normal issued some requirements on battery power storage programs, however on the regulation facet, it’s nonetheless silent. Regardless of that, we have now been issuing initiatives now, renewable power initiatives with around the clock RTC we referred to as around the clock energy availability. So these initiatives are being constructed with storage and so they construct our capability and in addition they construct storage. A few of them, the primary era of these going to be reside or commissioned this 12 months are going to return with pumped hydro storage. And a few of them subsequent 12 months, which will probably be coming on-line will probably be this RTC challenge. Massive ones. These are all gigawatt scale 1. That type of challenge goes to be with battery storage. However a transparent regulation on that’s nonetheless lacking.

There’s ancillary providers regulation, which was issued two years in the past, which is speaking about ancillary providers solely on the transmission degree, not at that distribution degree. So this stuff will evolve quickly.

MB: I’ll say that the chance round chemistries is a world concern. A little bit of a hysteria that’s being promoted by individuals against transition about lithium ion batteries going up in flames. There’s a a lot decrease incident of lithium ion battery grid storage and behind the meter storage services catching fireplace after they do catch fireplace, in lots of instances, fireplace departments should not ready to cope with the traits of the hearth. And so there’s variations in that, and there’s an emergent set of taking a look at that. Battery pack programs go up in flames loads much less typically than diesel backup turbines. Battery electrical vehicles go up in flames loads much less typically than gasoline or diesel autos. It’s inherently safer, however the traits imply that there’s plenty of concern about it.

Within the west, we’re seeing fireplace departments placing in laws you can’t put a battery storage system underground in a campus. For instance, the College of Toronto’s most up-to-date instance I’m conscious of, regardless of having allowing electrical vehicles to park underground. It’s a totally, , a clearly disparate factor, and I’m undecided if it’s the identical in India, however fireplace departments have been extremely efficient in North America in gaining all of the funds for emergency responses. So that they’re ravenous the ambulance service, regardless of being actually good at avoiding fires. So we have now very, only a few fires, and so they’re blown out of all proportion by the hearth division as a result of they get a price range for it. For instance, within the Toronto space, which is 8 million individuals, a tiny place by Indian requirements, however 8 million individuals. It’s large for Canada.

The fireplace division was selling the doubling of battery electrical fires between 2022 and 2023. The variety of fires went as much as 56. 56 small fires in a inhabitants of 8 million individuals. You take a look at the precise statistics, they’re trivial. However bear in mind that as you type of take a look at this, a few of this hysteria will probably be spreading India as properly. Most likely.

Nevertheless, shifting on, query 9. Can the storage eventualities be modified with the development of lithium ion or vanadium redox circulation battery storage applied sciences? Sure. So lithium ion, the development there may be not lithium ion, however lithium phosphate and sodium and different chemistries. One of many benefits of battery applied sciences is there are plenty of methods to retailer electrical energy with metals and nonmetals.

There’s emergence, for instance, of, , one agency I used to be working with makes use of the method that makes use of CO2 and bromine to make carbonates and reverse that course of and launch the electrical energy. It’s fairly environment friendly, it’s bought all kinds of benefits, however it’s a redox circulation battery. In that case, the chance remains to be shifting ahead in these areas. However I’ll say the next pretty clearly. Lithium ion. The overwhelming majority of batteries constructed as we speak are lithium ion. Which means it has that have curve and all people is aware of how to do this, way more so than most different chemistries. But when it’s in an ordinary kind issue of aluminum can, any chemistry which might slot in that aluminum can takes benefit of many of the manufacturing facility processes and distribution processes of lithium ion. So there’s actually fascinating stuff there now. Vanadium itself. Vanadium and zinc and iron redox circulation batteries, they’re fascinating, they’re early days. I don’t suppose we’re on the finish of that. However as I used to be saying to the traders within the CO2 primarily based redox circulation battery answer, the time when the large demand for a redox answer is 2030 and onwards. And so we have now time.

Reji and ISGF have been utterly proper a couple of years in the past to say, concentrate on batteries. As we speak, the time is coming when the strategic stuff must be executed and it’s good to begin taking a look at these long term initiatives like pumped hydro very critically that may stand alone.

Pumped hydro could be thought of as a standalone energy era system. I don’t learn about India’s laws for distribution facet energy era programs. I do know that in lots of jurisdictions within the west there’s preferential stuff. In southern Alberta, for instance, there’s a number of pure fuel and transmission interconnects are excessive.

So preferential remedy for small pure fuel era services, not that nice. However pumped hydro, as I say, it’s a scale query. I don’t suppose you need to hassle with 70 mw or 1 mw or three megawatt pumped hydro issues. It simply doesn’t make any sense. It’s simply cheaper to purchase some cell primarily based batteries and dump them in your.

Simply don’t fuss. It’s like individuals in North America who’ve properties and so they insist on getting off the grid. They’ve their very own photo voltaic and so they have one thing else and have batteries and so they have their very own inverters and so they have their very own management programs and so they snip the wire with utilities. And I say, why do you undergo all that hassle? It’s simply extra hassle than it’s value, as a result of it’s a must to handle your personal frequency, your personal voltage. Simply don’t do it easy, low-cost. When you really need behind the meter power storage as we speak, get the best dimension battery. However are there standalone energy era issues inside India that might promote different sorts of issues? Reji, as with the useful charges for behind within the distribution grid distributed era, are there preferential charges for distributed power era India? Stuff that feeds into the distribution facet.

RKP: Of the grid in older states through the interval from 2013 to 2016, besides the northeastern states, all different states, mainland states issued web metering insurance policies, however over time, a few of these have gone again to gross metering and or some adjustments which have occurred. However photo voltaic web metering is there all over the place, however no different main coverage intervention for the behind the meter assets. So we’re engaged on that. Perhaps any useful resource behind the meter, it may be battery, storage, warmth pump, no matter it comes. It could possibly be industrial scale air-con crops or heated water heaters, these that may be what you name exploited for nice flexibility. There ought to be some regulatory mechanism to compensate them for that. So there’s a dialogue, however possibly with a scale with which the renewable service, the house with which it’s scaling up, renewals are scaling up.

These issues will turn out to be actual very quickly. I simply take it, take a minute. We’re out of time. However there are lots of questions concerning the battery temperature, etcetera. So one of many predominant issues is concerning the bus and automotive, the 4 wheelers. Principally batteries are saved in a local weather managed chamber, which isn’t the case in two wheeler and wheeler. So two wheeler, three wheeler. There’s an actual drawback. We had tons of of two wheelers going up in flame in 2021 and 22. So we modified some norms in testing, and many others. And so forth. So which has lowered in 23 and 24 right here a single incident. These are all associated to tubules, the 45 diploma centigrade electrical tubules catching fireplace. So that isn’t there a lot as a result of we made it very strict about that.

Some procedures with the testing and approval of the cells and speaking about, as you stated, having a small pump. Storage in rural areas goes to be way more costly than batteries. So that you rightly tackle batteries pretty much as good. And now another person is asking about sodium ion versus LFP. So at LFP costs, at $50 per kilowatt hour, sodium ion is anytime quickly not going to return. It’s nonetheless an rising know-how. Not what you name. We don’t have that a lot expertise with sodium ion as we have now with LFP or NMC. So if sodium ion is increased, it doesn’t give me any extra benefit than lf eight. Supreme for as much as 2 hours, 4 hours or most 6 hours of storage.

However I could pay extra money for, any utility could pay extra money for circulation battery as a result of it offers you six to 10 hours or 12 hours of or much more of storage. So when the efficiency is by and enormous the identical, it’s all going to run on business. So as a substitute of paying double the cash, I really like two completely different batteries. First battery, I’ll use it for the first 4 hours. And one other battery I’ll use for one more 4 hours after I get lithium LFP batteries at $50 or much less energy to Michael.

MB: Query eleven. Advantageous for long run power storage. Battery electrical programs present that quick time period grid stabilization. There’s a necessity for each. So the best way {that a} pumped hydro system works is you let water, you open a gate and also you’re letting water down alongside penstock and it’s going by way of a turbine. And the turbine could be synchronous, which suggests it has to spin as much as gate grid frequency 50 or 60 hz. Or it’s asynchronous, which suggests it begins producing electrical energy instantly. However that’s a mechanical course of. Even with this asynchronous era, it takes a couple of seconds or a minute earlier than you’re really producing sufficient electrical energy to be significant. Whereas battery electrical programs can reply in milliseconds. So the place you want millisecond or very quick response batteries work. The place you want a number of power, pumped hydro works.

You’re going to want each sorts of traits, as a result of the completely different components of the grid storage requirement have completely different traits. So that you want each. You’re not going to have the ability to eliminate batteries as a result of you’ve pumped hydro, and also you’re not going to eliminate pumped hydro as a result of you’ve batteries. They’re completely different beasts. I hope that solutions that. Sodium ion versus LFP and battery storage. Okay, so LFP is rising. Reji talked about CATL’s $56 per kilowatt hour batteries. That’s on the cell degree, not the pack for EV’s or for grid storage services. However that’s lithium phosphate know-how. And in order that’s the LFP chemistry is already at that value level. It has decrease power density. It’s about 80% the power density of present lithium ion. So there’s a commerce off.

You get much less power for a similar weight in a car, however it’s nice for grid storage. And so that you begin to see these chemistries. One of many questions you ask your self is, oh, that chemistry in opposition to the span of prompt response, slower response, extra power, extra weight. Which of the use instances the place we’d like power provision, saved power provision, is that appropriate for? For instance, the maritime trade, which in my projections, goes to impress vastly greater than most individuals suppose, all in land, most quick sea delivery, and hybrids for transoceanic, they’re a lot much less weight delicate. And so the decrease power density of LFP at a really low value level is advantageous, however it received’t work for air aviation.

So, aviation, the place I’m beginning to see is we’re beginning to see the condensed matter batteries from CATL, which have double the power density of lithium ion. And we’re beginning, and I’m wanting, monitoring 4 or 5 organizations now, that are commercializing silicon anode power density batteries, which both reduce the load of a battery for a similar storage, or they’ve potential to be 5 occasions the power density of CATL’s condensed matter battery. And so we’ll see the place there’s a really robust weight benefit. Aviation and probably private autos and possibly vehicles, the place we see a powerful value benefit, however heavier weights, we see maritime and stationary storage. So, as you take a look at this stuff, don’t ask your self which one goes to win, you’re going to ask your self which one is appropriate for which utility and why.

If there’s, like, a few of these chemistries are inherently extra thermally steady than lithium ion, and so the place there’s a really excessive sensitivity to fires, possibly they’ll have a bonus there. They’ll make them economically aggressive. It’s not remotely a easy reply, and plenty of it’s simply going to be, oh, , a bunch of individuals will purchase that as a result of it meets their wants, however we will begin to challenge what that’s. Very fascinating house.

How a lot share of battery wastage could be allowed to mom Earth. The round financial system. I consider it is a query about, if I can articulate and paraphrase it, recycling of batteries. So, a giant examine was executed in 2022 or 2023 to debunk the nonsense about, and the nonsense made solely 5% of batteries. We’re already at 59% international recycling of batteries, increased in some levels, decrease in others. There’s no cause why we will’t get to 95%, particularly for EV batteries. EV batteries are large. The battery in my watch, the battery in my telephone are tiny, and so they’re amongst a bunch of different stuff however an EV’s battery pack is a giant chunk of mine-able metals and parts. Higher if we construct them to be disassembled. However that’s a course of. They final a very long time. They final 20 years. We’ll reuse them, then we’ll recycle them. We’ll get to 95%. We’ll make the chemistry extra. Michael Liebreich calls this one of many 5 superpowers of decarbonization.

If we’re at 95% recycling and we’re growing effectivity of our chemistries successfully for a very long time, even though we will’t get to 100%, we’re getting extra out of the identical minerals we mined 20 and 40 years in the past. And so there’s a powerful motion on the planet. We’re already at 59% as of 2019. It’s increased now and it’ll be increased sooner or later. So don’t be involved about that. We’d like hundreds of thousands of tons of battery minerals and we’ve bought 20 billion tons of fossil fuels.

Trade battery stations for EV’s and cities. I’ll rapidly lean into this one. It is a place that’s a lot hyped and it’s got niches. I’m strongly on battery swapping for trains and ship options. I’m robust on battery swapping for geographically constrained fleets the place the price of a 5 minute break could be very excessive.

However proper now, I believe that we’re over specializing in battery swapping. I believe Nio is making the fallacious selection with its battery swapping autos. Gogoro, I believe, is the title of this scooter system in Asia. Effectively, it’s shedding $70 million a 12 months, and its inventory value is down to five% of what it was at its peak. I believe that there are robust locations the place containerized batteries make sense, however proper now, the value of batteries means we will put a giant battery on a truck cease or a charging cease to suck energy constantly for twenty-four hours and ship very excessive velocity charging the facility facet when vehicles and vehicles want it at very speedy dashing. I believe my projection proper now could be that the economics work out higher for buffering batteries and excessive chargers than for the mechanical constraints of attempting to swap batteries throughout plenty of autos. One of many constraints on battery swapping is you want precisely the identical car.

It has to have precisely the identical containers. And if you happen to think about public charging, if you happen to think about simply vehicles, for instance, meaning all of the truck corporations need to agree on the size and all of the requirements across the swappable battery, versus simply agreeing on what the plug seems prefer it’s less complicated to maneuver electrical energy than it’s to maneuver batteries, in my view. I believe it’ll win out. However as individuals identified to me after I revealed on this just lately, virtually half of the vehicles bought in China final 12 months have been battery swapping succesful. Now, these have been fleet vehicles. They’re additionally charging succesful, so it’s unclear what share are literally utilizing the swapping or versus simply shopping for the pliability to swap sooner or later.

As a result of a battery swapping station must be automated, cradle to grave, has to don’t have any individuals in it, must be very exact, and it prices about $1.1 million us per battery swapping station nowadays and it’s not going to get less expensive. So I don’t suppose swapping is a giant path sooner or later with low-cost batteries. However I’d be confirmed fallacious on different stuff, this one. There’s some counterexamples. As soon as once more, China is making me query my assumptions.

RKP: In India, two wheeler and three wheeler swapping stations are working very properly, though we don’t have an ordinary. So there are 5 – 6 completely different styles and sizes being kind components being adopted. However it’s rising very quick. Each nook you possibly can. In large cities, a minimum of about 30-40 cities, you will discover battery swapping stations for 2 wheelers and three wheelers. This primarily got here as a result of ISGF advocated two wheeler and three wheeler electrical. Two wheeler and three wheeler ought to be bought with out battery batteries, which has been accepted by the federal government as we speak. There are two village three wheelers. You should purchase it for one thing like $600, $700 with out battery and battery individuals take it from the procuring station. So that’s going. However as you stated, automated, what you name robotic arm primarily based battery procuring stations.

We tried one in Ahmedabad with Ashoka island and Solar mobility some 4 years in the past. So it didn’t. The buses had 37.5 kilowatt hour batteries, which a robotic was pulling out and placing it again, which didn’t go fairly properly. So we aren’t shifting in that course. Transferring in that course at this level.

MB: Principally what I say is that if a human can decide up the battery and transfer it between the house and the scooter, if the batteries are in delivery containers which have a complete distribution system round them, that works. However creating one thing within the center is pricey and difficult and results in all kinds of bizarre issues. Densely, like dense city areas the place there’s. The federal government has put its foot down, stated swapping, a superb answer not replicated in most locations. So it’s fascinating to see the way it varies throughout geography. Thanks, Reji, for stating that ISGF’s involvement within the structural method that India has taken for that. That’s an excellent extra instance for me.

RKP: There are two extra questions. One speaking about distributed. That is one thing which we like to distribute at each house, having rooftop photo voltaic and a battery. They usually actively take part in betting within the energy market. So save the or retailer the solar energy within the battery and promote it throughout peak time or promote it to not the grid however to the peer to see promoting of this. So we have already got a regulation of peer to see saving, of promoting rooftop photo voltaic power and a few extra states are going to have it. And we, or we’re working in the direction of a state of affairs. Half of India, peer to see buying and selling of rooftop photo voltaic power or clear power will probably be legally obtainable, legitimate. There will probably be laws supporting that.

After which persons are going to only think about hundreds of thousands of individuals going to promote to hundreds of thousands of individuals and even the automotive. As we speak one of many main narratives concerning the electrical car is that the Indian grid remains to be 80% coal energy. So my electrical automotive just isn’t going to be a clear transportation. I’m taking the grey electrons or a black electrons and placing them in my automotive. So it’s not really inexperienced mobility. However that’s all going to vary. You may really purchase from people who find themselves rooftop and promoting it and that’s the longer term. We’re taking a look at it. It is going to occur very quickly.

MB: Yeah, I’m not bullish on that peer to see electrical energy gross sales. You continue to want the utility since you nonetheless want the wires. It turns into a contract between a number of gamers. I checked out this 5 years in the past after I was taking a look at blockchain and a few of these peer to see power options and the contractual constructions must be established and the utility must be paid for the wires. It turns into extra complicated than individuals think about. I believe there received’t be as a lot participation, however I could possibly be fallacious. I simply don’t see it. Most individuals aren’t going to care about that. Is it advisable to have an EV charging station with battery storage supply? Sure, completely.

The latest evaluation I did says that in two jurisdictions I occur to choose up a battery with projections of the battery storage costs by 2030 primarily based upon the $56 this 12 months, a $30 battery storage that’s ample to cost 22 heavy vehicles a day. So it’s beginning. Vehicles deployment would pay for itself in 17 months simply on the price of electrical energy arbitrage. Simply taking the third of the day with the bottom charges and shifting that electrical energy to the very best charges. The proprietor of the truck cease would pay for the battery very quickly. Then they’d be making coin after that. That flattening.

Any person else identified in that dialogue, one of many first charts it did had that black line of demand the place the grid, that flattening and use of the distribution grid goes to emerge very quickly and that’s going to vary the dynamics of pricing through the day time use pricing is throughout California, adopted Australia. That duck curve in the course of the day is now a distinct value zone at a a lot decrease price as a result of individuals need the Indian authorities to shift demand there and as soon as once more carry demand up there to fight the duck curve. And battery storage is a part of that. Let’s purchase electrical energy for the battery after which use it within the excessive costly stuff. So battery storage and truck stops, bang on. It’s going to be a really large factor.

And organizations which have been modeling this out, have been modeling out the facility calls for for trucking, however not modeling out battery buffering for trucking. RMI is engaged on this. I’ve been in contact with the man after I revealed on battery buffering and the alternatives that I pointed to their RMI’s paper on this and so they stated, yeah, we’re engaged on the following era. It’s as a result of issues have modified. All people’s shocked by batteries.

RKP: So Ravi [Seethapahy, Honorary Member and Working Group Chair for ISGF], do you’ve any feedback on as we speak’s session?

Ravi Seethapathy (RS): Yeah, I agree. I believe it’s a really complicated topic that you simply gave Michael an hour to speak about. If I used to be to summarize, there could be three reduce factors, proper? About 150 megawatt hours or 200 megawatt hours and better. So he spoke of terawatt hours for the pump storage. So that might be transmission related as a way to evacuate energy and renewable power from wherever to wherever. When you come beneath between the hundred to 5, you typically would get into the battery power storage at a distributed account, if you would like, after which behind the meter could be 5 mw or decrease, which might be a distinction. So. However the regulation is what kills it, as a result of primarily based on what you should buy for and what you possibly can promote to the grid is the place the problem lies. Jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

And that’s the reason the car to grid. And Rish [Ghatikar, ISGF Board Member] and I’ve at all times disagreed on this. And you’re conscious {that a} car to house might be extra doable as a result of I worth each the house in addition to the car. However after I promote it to the grid, I turn out to be like a vendor. And I at all times quoted. Even in my youthful days, after we used to go and get kerosene from the store for rationing, we by no means bought it to our neighbor. We by no means bought it to our neighbor. So it was valued much more as a result of we bought that gasoline by way of the federal government system. The second factor is, each time you set a charger that’s bi directional, you are attempting to arbitrage a 4 to 5 greenback transaction on a $2,000 set up. You bought to suppose this by way of.

That’s why I advocate the varsity bus fleets that’s typically stationary between 10:00 a.m. And it most likely could provide you with a greater enterprise case than attempting to place it on particular person autos which might be free wheeling autos, if you happen to so want. So I believe it’s a really tough topic. So subsequent time you most likely want to offer them like two and a half hours or 3 hours. No, it’s. It’s, proper. And so I don’t suppose have been truthful to only pack it in 45 minutes after which give him an entire slew of questions.

RKP: Thanks. Thanks very a lot. Good day. Good evening to all people. And we’ll ship the recorded YouTube hyperlink inside 48 hours. And subsequent will probably be subsequent Thursday. Thanks.