Sheer Scale & Complexity Of Reefs Makes Adaptation & Preservation Difficult

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Just lately I hosted Professor Amy Wagoner Johnson, a US supplies scientist who’s main a world analysis undertaking on coral reef restoration, on my podcast Redefining Vitality – Tech. Within the theme of offering transcripts of displays I’m giving in numerous locations for individuals who choose the written phrase, that is the calmly edited transcript of the second half of our dialog. The primary half, with embedded podcast, is right here.

Michael Barnard (MB): Hello, welcome again to Redefining Vitality Tech. I’m your host, Michael Barnard. My visitor is returning for the second half of our dialogue, and that’s Professor Amy Wagner Johnson, a fabric scientist. She has a day job or three with the landlocked College of Illinois Urbana Champaign, a few hours south of Chicago and 750 miles from the Atlantic. However she’s main a world initiative to revive coral reefs based mostly on her work 3D printing human bone scaffolding and tissues. And that story consists of machine studying, wave flumes, and Curacao. Hear in for the second half of our dialog.

We’ve one other issue for coral substrates. Let’s discuss briefly, synthetic reefs versus pure reefs, as a result of I believe the primary time I grew to become conscious of synthetic reefs was on account of a competitor to IBM. When IBM introduced up its unique private pc, it had a crappy exhausting drive, and the competitor, what they did is that they had a commerce in. They offer you a greater exhausting drive from them, and so they take the crappy IBM exhausting drive, after which they deliberately dump them within the ocean off Boca Raton, Florida, to create a man-made reef. On the time, I believed that was fairly outstanding, good advertising as a result of Boca Raton had the IBM analysis middle in Florida.

Prof. Amy Wagoner Johnson (AWJ): It’s fairly symbolic.

MB: Now, after all, with my higher information of chemistry and the discussions you and I are having, I’m questioning concerning the chemical compounds leaching off these exhausting drives and the implications there. I do know that proper now there’s a spot within the Pacific the place previous tires have been dumped to change into a man-made reef. However the tires are leaching destructive chemical compounds into the native biosphere and creating important issues. They’ve created an underwater poisonous waste dump versus a vibrant reef. The extra we can assist nature assist itself and stay inside the constraints of nature, the extra probably we’re to do much less injury.

AWJ: It’s completely true. And once more, that goes again to why, when my colleague and I have been initially eager about, oh, let’s 3D print stuff for coral reefs, after which simply needed to take a step again, as a result of even placing concrete within the ocean, it leaches out issues that aren’t good. It can lead to progress of issues that you just don’t need, fairly than progress of issues that you just do need. I’ll point out simply, there was a DARPA name a few years in the past to make big reefs, principally to guard shorelines close to army bases. The group I’m working with now did apply, however sadly we didn’t get it. The thought was to construct a dwelling construction, precisely what you’re speaking about. In some sense a man-made reef, however the intent was for it to be a dwelling construction.

How can we kind this rapidly and actually get it to populate with wholesome corals and animals that may assist, you recognize, create this sustainable and wholesome ecosystem to guard the shoreline. DARPA funds actually dangerous issues and so they like actually on the market tasks. It was enjoyable to form of take into consideration these issues. Sadly, we didn’t get it. However that’s okay. Any person’s engaged on it.

MB: Proper now I’m listening to a number of situations for profitable synthetic reefs from what you’ve shared up to now. There must be fractal granular constructions on something you set all the way down to create micro eddies, which permit the cilia for the larvae to connect. It must be an appropriate substance for the larva to connect to calcium carbonate. Usually it must have strontium, magnesium, and different hint components in the precise proportions, roughly inward, nonetheless stumbling our approach to understanding what these are. Then it has to have chemical indicators from the flat algae plates that you just’re speaking about, or one thing related from them, some chemical set off. Then it needs to be in the precise temperature zone of water for the stacked symbiote to work. Then it needs to be shut sufficient to this, the floor of the water for the. For that to persist, for the photosynthesis to persist. Oh, what a mixture.

I’m going to make a speculation simply because that is form of enjoyable, proper? I can think about 3D-printing 50 centimeter by 50 centimeter cubes in a lattice with maybe centimeter extensive items, form of a easy cubic construction, centimeter extensive items with the strontium, the magnesium, and the calcium carbonate because the construction. One thing you possibly can stack and drop offshore. I can see two methods to do that, as a result of it’s essential improve evolution together with the chemical launch of the no matter chemical it’s from a flat algae. However you need to try this nearer to shore and farther from shore from the reef to permit those that occur to be extra warmth proof against populate the near-shore ones and those which can be extra daylight disadvantaged, succesful to populate those farther from shore to assist them migrate a bit.

I believe that’s form of the place my mind goes now. That is my speculation based mostly upon discussing this with you and a few of the studying I did earlier than prepping for this. The place are you guys truly going? Am I even within the ballpark?

AWJ: Type of.One in all my colleagues is Forest Rohr, and he has an attention-grabbing concept that we’re additionally engaged on with him that is known as arcs, and these are floating constructions. They’re form of geodesic wanting, the place you may put panels of this materials on this construction, and that materials would enable larvae to settle. You may put some fragmented coral on there. That’s once you reduce a bit piece of coral off of the colony and glue it to a substrate after which put it some other place. And the thought behind these is kind of just like the arc, proper? They’re floating, and so you possibly can transfer them to completely different places relying on the situations.

Let’s say the temperature goes to warmth up. Effectively, you possibly can transfer your arc to deeper water, the place the water’s cooler and shield them, or there’s a pollutant that has come out the place the arc is, and you may transfer it to cleaner water. You’ll be able to form of attempt to populate these arks with completely different species of coral, which could herald urchins and fish and different issues. That isn’t essentially going to guard the shoreline in the identical means as a result of they’re floating, proper? They are often, and they might be anchored, however they might transfer round and never essentially serve that function of defending the shoreline, however nonetheless be a bit cellular ecosystem that might be used to attempt to preserve some wholesome reef, however to permit it to be moved to safer locations when there’s risk.

That’s one path that the group I’m working with goes that’s completely different from, you recognize, printing blocks of this materials and placing it across the shoreline. However I believe that, actually, I believe that there’s a lot that needs to be thought-about on this. I believe we actually have to return at it from all instructions as a result of it’s such a sophisticated downside, and it’s actually an vital downside. Very difficult, essential. We want all scientific disciplines contributing to this.

MB: Again to the geodesic dome. What I hear you say is that it’s positively buoyant not floating on the floor, so floating under the floor, as a result of then you definately’ve acquired in the precise, you may get into the precise temperature zone a bit decrease, the precise sunshine zone a bit increased, and you may then try this. The geodesic dome, after all — yay, Buckminster Fuller — is the strongest construction you possibly can create with minimal supplies. Significantly better than the dice that I recommend for stacking. Geodesic domes are horrible for stacking, however they’re nice bodily constructions. That’s a extremely attention-grabbing form of conceptual aquaculture reef.

AWJ: Sure.

MB: It’s nonetheless creating the habitat for the biodiversity. It’s nonetheless preserving an amazing quantity of that facet of the reef. However it’s not creating the shoreline safety facet. One of many issues I spent lots of time a few years in the past working with Pure Assets Canada, was the implications for shorelines with will increase in storm surge, with will increase in cyclonic exercise globally, with will increase in sea degree. We will’t harden the shores. We’ve to re-soften them, which runs into political issues, as a result of, after all, wealthy folks with shoreline stuff don’t need to hear that they’ve to maneuver away from the shoreline. They simply need to know, how are you going to guard my seashore?

AWJ: Sure, sure.

MB: Joke. A set of wealthy householders in California acquired collectively and spent tens of millions of {dollars} on placing new sand on their seashore. 5 days later, it had all washed away in a storm. Individuals who simply weren’t being attentive to the truth of the state of affairs. The politics round coastal hardening and prosperous communities and your infrastructure versus coastal softening and retreat are fascinating to observe play out globally. And coral reefs are a part of that. It’s actually attention-grabbing.

AWJ: If I can simply return to the geodesic dome. These are made with struts, so that they’re not plates on there, so the water can circulate by means of. Though you might cowl a few of the holes, however these might be put collectively in form of Lego model, much like the blocks, and linked as a way to begin to construct that shoreline. I believe that there have been some research that present that having one thing that’s not totally blocking the water is best than simply having like, a concrete wall that the wave slams into. A construction like this would supply a few of that form of openness that a few of the water may circulate by means of, nevertheless it wouldn’t be like slamming right into a brick wall.

In the meanwhile, we don’t have plans to form of do these connecting constructions and placing them on the underside of the ocean, however that may be a chance sooner or later. simply wished to say that earlier than we moved on.

MB: I’ll say if the oil and fuel business was truly a superb participant on the planet, all their subsea engineering expertise could be nice for constructing synthetic constructions that elevated the seafloor to the precise degree of temperature within the ocean and stuff, and put a man-made reef on high of that. Simply saying, however not going to occur. The oil and fuel business is retrenching to their core. They’re going to extract the final barrel and cubic meter of pure fuel they’ll and promote it for the best value they’ll, and that’s what they’ve change into.

AWJ: Agreed.

MB: We’ve talked about micro scale. We’re speaking about millimeter scale right here, and that is very small. We’ve been speaking about some meso scale issues just like the half meter or meter sq. dice idea that I simply got here up with, which is significantly better articulated as a geodesic dome of struts. These are smaller scale constructions. However let’s discuss concerning the scale. Do you occur to have the dimensions of the nice barrier reefs or one of many different nice barrier reefs? The mass, the amount, simply the sheer space?

AWJ: I do not need a quantity, however I do know it may be seen from satellite tv for pc. That claims as huge as many international locations.

MB: I’m going to cheat. So the Nice Barrier Reef, Google is our pal for this. Nearly 350,000 km². That’s greater than many international locations. Quantity. Do I’ve a quantity assertion? Okay, I’ve acquired hectares. Sure, nice barrier, 400 varieties of coral, 1500 species of fish, 4000 varieties of mollusk.

AWJ: It’s unbelievable.

MB: I’m shocked that I can’t discover the mass in kilograms. Large, enormous space. It’s one of many nice wonders of the world, pure wonders of the world, and going by means of important bleaching. After we say 350,000 km², now, the corals I’ve tended to see have been pretty, in pretty shallow water, amenable for scuba diving or snorkeling, as a result of, you recognize, I may snorkel within the Caribbean. I’m not a scuba diver. So do you have got any sense of how thick a coral is high to backside, like the peak of a coral?

AWJ: After we dive in Curacao, and simply full disclosure, I might not name myself a diver by any means. I’ve a postdoc who works on this undertaking in my lab, and he goes and does all of the diving. It’s like, don’t let the professor within the lab form of factor. Professors break stuff within the lab. However I did do it a few instances. And a few of the core corals that we have been have been form of, you recognize, these train balls that you just sit on, they’re form of like that. A few of them have been like that, some a bit smaller, some a bit greater. A few of the corals that we have been have been about that dimension. They have been principally not encrusting corals and never branching corals, however fairly these form of stony coral varieties. A few of them have been remoted and a few of them have been close to different colonies.

MB: My expertise with corals was some snorkeling in a cove in Hawaii and a few snorkeling within the Caribbean. The corals I noticed have been half a meter to 2 meters, form of the vary of top. We’ve 350,000 km² with maybe a meter thick. You recognize, that’s 350 billion cubic meters [bad math on the top of my head in discussion replaced with actual math] of fabric that stretches 1000 or 1500 kilometers. It’s a non trivial engineering process to even take into account it on the scale it exists.

AWJ: Completely.

MB: We’ve been speaking about this millimeter scale, and this will get again to 3D printing. You’re a mechanical engineer, you’re in a mechanical engineering division. You most likely had expertise with the very first deposition 3D printers. You’ve most likely labored with CNC machines in some unspecified time in the future in your profession. Earlier than they grew to become common, you have been most likely taking part in with them and positively had them round. You’re accustomed to how lengthy it takes for deposition printing to do stuff. And since you’re a nerd, you’ve most likely frolicked eager about nanotechnologies and nano constructing constructions and the way lengthy that may take on the atomic and molecular degree for something to show into something even seen. And that is form of the stuff we’re speaking about.

We’re speaking about machines, organic machines the dimensions of rice that construct 350,000 km², huge offshore constructions over 1000’s of years.

AWJ: It’s loopy. It’s unbelievable.

MB: Each time I begin exploring facets of it, it’s actually obvious most individuals by no means hassle to have a look at the mathematics when it comes to the dimensions. It’s actually difficult. Your group has frolicked wanting on the scale. How lengthy will it take for a man-made reef to accrete adequate polyps to change into successfully a pure reef, even with the geodesic dome idea you have got?

AWJ: That’s a terrific query. The Nice Barrier Reef, I believe there’s a quantity that’s like a number of hundred thousand years that took to make. I don’t assume we now have to make nice Barrier reefs. I believe we will make pockets of reefs that can have perhaps smaller ecosystems, however that may profit the native space.

How lengthy does it take? I believe it’s a tricky query since you’re continually battling illness and pollution. I might say like a decade for a completely wholesome reef, however I’m simply throwing a quantity on the market as a result of you possibly can’t simply have one kind of coral rising. We work on a few completely different species, and a few work higher than others.

If you happen to simply develop one species, that’s not going to be adequate for the ecosystem. I don’t know. I hate to even say, nevertheless it’s not in a single season and it’s not in 5 seasons.

MB: I’m going again to the voyage of the Beagle, Darwin and Galapagos islands, and his differentiation of finches on completely different islands, relying upon the dimensions of the nuts that have been there. I can see, you recognize, clearly the microclimates inside a reef will favor completely different species of corals.

AWJ: Sure.

MB: The open water basketball corals are very in a different way branching, huge construction corals. Let me ask this query differently. I’m eager about black fly lifecycles. Fruit flies are utilized in genetic testing as a result of they complete lifecycles in 24 hours. How lengthy does a polyp final? How lengthy does a larvae take to construct a polyp? What’s the lifespan of a polyp?

AWJ: I can let you know that after we gather the gametes and so they flip into the larvae and both die or settle inside a few weeks. Once they settle, they flip right into a polyp, a single polyp. We don’t know whether or not they kind of begin, I’ll say, like, amassing the supplies once they’re larvae which can be used to construct the skeleton. There’s proof of getting a bit little bit of skeleton very early. These polyps don’t simply develop radially. A little bit polyp doesn’t simply change into like an enormous polyp. It divides, then there are a number of polyps. You may begin with one polyp in your substrate, and a 12 months later, perhaps there’s 4 or 5 polyps on the substrate, and it kind of begins to develop laterally.

How lengthy does a single polyp stay? These reefs reside 1000’s and 1000’s of years, and I’m certain a few of these polyps are long-lived.

MB: Does the larvae, the dwelling a part of the polyp, have a brief lifespan, after which the construction will get reinhabited by one other larvae? Is that one thing that happens?

AWJ: No, I don’t assume so. Let’s say you had a colony, and a few diver got here in and kicked it and knocked off a few of the polyps or injured the polyps. Some area of that colony, meter-sized colony, breaks off or will get an damage, after which that portion of it dies and falls off. What would occur there may be the polyps within the surrounding space would divide and begin to cowl that new space. It’s not going that, you recognize, larvae would come and land precisely there until there was some help.

You would help that by, for instance, once you seize your gametes, you might convey them over to that colony, and you might tent that colony and launch your larvae in there, and that may kind of entice them and kind of pressure them to land there. But when it’s a distinct species, then these two species may battle and kill one another. It needs to be larvae from the identical species and perhaps even the identical colony. I believe it’s extra probably that the dwelling polyps would unfold over that space that was broken by one thing else.

MB: This does recommend that coral, which has been bleached and died, one of many strategies for restoring it will be to get the gametes and larvae tent the bleached stuff and launch the larvae in there, and so they may repopulate the reef. You’re nodding your head. That is my speculation. Is that this truly one thing that’s being explored, to your information?

AWJ: There’s a gaggle that does this related analysis at Carmabi lab. What they’ve carried out is that they’ve created bins in one of many bays there in Curacao, and so they put a bunch of their substrates in them. They’re several types of substrates, and so they put a bunch of these substrates within the bin, after which they put larvae in there and form of tent it to attempt to get the larvae to settle in these bins. I’m undecided how profitable that’s been.

We’ve tried and are going to repeat the place we tent the arc, the geodesic dome, have substrates in there, gather the larvae, and put them within the geodesic dome and tent it to attempt to get all these larvae to settle. So it’s not completely clear, like, how profitable that can be. You continue to need to have the precise situations.

If the larvae are sniffing round and so they don’t just like the scent, then you possibly can’t pressure them to settle there. You continue to have to know, what are the situations which can be conducive to the larvae settling? These juvenile polyps are actually weak to different issues that may come and settle adjoining and develop over them, or perhaps a parrot fish will come and munch on them. If it’s a single polyp, then it’s carried out. If it’s a colony it may afford to lose a pair polyps from a parrot fish or someone kicking the colony, or regardless of the insult may be.

MB: I’m simply eager about, you recognize, again to that train ball scale globular factor. That’s most likely tens of millions or tons of of 1000’s of particular person polyps.

AWJ: I by no means considered estimating the variety of them, however, I imply, it’s quite a bit, proper?

They’re completely different sizes as nicely. So we’re making an attempt to have a look at the expansion fee of polyps that settled on our substrates, and we’re nonetheless going by means of that information from a couple of 12 months in the past. We settled the larvae on substrates, and we put them in some tanks at Carmabi, this lab in Curacao, the place we do a few of our fieldwork. Then we had an intern who got here and would maintain them clear. He’d go in and he’d brush off any dangerous stuff to form of shield this single polyp on this substrate. Then we measured them, like, each month, and it’s fairly sluggish. We’ll let you recognize after we’re carried out compiling the info. However I can let you know that it’s fairly sluggish.

You need them to change into mature sufficient in order that once you put them out within the water, that they’ll be capable to take a few of the insults that they might be uncovered to.

MB: Again to the lifecycle. There’s a few weeks for the larvae, then there’s an prolonged time frame as a polyp. Think about that the child, teenage, and middle-aged years? When do they change into an adolescent? How lengthy earlier than they’re in a position to reproduce? When have they got a house that’s truly secure? It sounds prefer it’s greater than a 12 months, to make sure.

AWJ: It most likely, once more, varies by species and situations, however I’m undecided once they change into sexually mature. However sure, it’s not like rodents or rabbits. It’s tons longer than that.

MB: They’re constructing their skeleton round them on the surface from stuff. They’re straining ions from the ocean.

AWJ: It’s form of beneath. It’s like a bit dumpling. Once they first settle, you have got this larva that’s form of like a delicate grain of rice, form of elongated. Some are a bit bit extra spherical, however then it form of units one finish down after which shrinks down and types. It appears to be like like a bit dumpling. Then they begin growing little tentacles. And the tentacles are at first, little quick and stubby tentacles, like, you recognize, like toddlers. Their proportions are form of quick and stubby. These quick and stubby tentacles develop longer, relying on the species. Once they sit their backside down and make this dumpling after which begin forming tentacles, they’re constructing a skeleton, and so they’re constructing it beneath them, after which by means of the partitions of the dumpling.

They’ve these septae that form of divide it. If you happen to slice an orange transversely and also you see these septae that separate the boats of the orange. It’s form of like that. They’ve these skeletal partitions, however in addition they have form of a skeletal pedestal that they’re on, after which the delicate tissue surrounds that.

MB: Okay. I believe I used to be mistaking them for one of many species, which truly retreats inside its shell, however they encompass the carbonaceous materials rather more. They constructed the pedestal. They construct a skeleton, and it’s a construction, after which they presumably die in some unspecified time in the future. Then one thing else, one other larvae, is available in and builds one other skeleton on high of the previous skeleton. It grows and grows. And it’s not very fast.

AWJ: No, in no way.

MB: To summarize, for tens of 1000’s of years reefs develop in tropical waters avoiding glaciation. The Nice Barrier Reef endured throughout the interval of glaciation. They’ve advanced for a selected set of temperatures, salinity, alkalinity, set of chemical parts within the water, a set of symbiotic species stacked within the case of the polyps, with the algae contained in the abdomen of the polyp. They’re a kind of built-in symbiotic programs versus aspect by aspect symbiotic programs. Presumably they’ve a symbiotic relationship of some degree with the mat algae.

They need to have the precise hint components of strontium, magnesium, they need to have the precise temperature, they need to have the precise diploma of daylight as a way to construct these constructions that take a really very long time to construct. Now we’re altering all the pieces round them in a really quick time frame and so they can’t adapt as a result of they aren’t free floating.

Let’s briefly take an instance. Birds are considerably in danger on account of local weather change, however they’re probably the most cellular species on the earth. In a lot of their circumstances, they’ll simply transfer a bit bit north, a bit bit south, a bit bit east, a bit bit west, fairly organically. It’s simply not the identical for reefs.

AWJ: No, in no way. By no means.

MB: We solely have a pair minutes left. I need to be respectful of your time. Fascinating dialog. I might fortunately delve into all types of nerdy stuff with you, however there may be one further query after which the open ended factor.

What’s the largest aha second you’ve had on this mental journey over the previous six or seven years?

AWJ: Effectively, I can let you know the primary one was on the convention that I went to with my colleague Andrew Lean, who we work with on 3D printing. I used to be all excited. We’re simply going to 3D-print these supplies and so they’re going to go within the reef and it’s going to be superior and we’re going to make an enormous distinction.

Then I realized about what fragging is and the way they reduce one thing off and so they glue it to the substrate. Then there’s this interface of glue between the coral and the substrate. And so I used to be like, I don’t even assume, like, what are we even going to do? There’s glue there and so they’re caught on there. They’re not even interacting with the fabric. How will we take into consideration what the fabric means in that case?

Then I realized concerning the larvae and I used to be like, that’s the place we will assault this by pondering extra concerning the larvae. However I believe there are different issues you are able to do. You’ll be able to design supplies to sit down subsequent to the reef to launch chemical compounds or change the ph or gather pollution or issues like that. It doesn’t solely need to be that you’ve got a substrate for a larva to sit down on. I believe there are many different thrilling prospects to make use of supplies in methods that can enhance the well being of the reef.

MB: This has been superb. You have got a world, nerdy viewers. I get folks from each continent listening in, and they’re targeted on local weather options. They’re targeted on nerdy know-how and the cash and scale of the issue. You have got no matter size of time you need to say, no matter you need to them. What would you wish to share?

AWJ: I might say that I believe this can be a scientific downside, that we actually want folks from all disciplines to lean in and attempt to contribute to this as a result of, you recognize, we’ve talked about supplies, we’ve talked about all completely different elements of biology. We didn’t even discuss microbiology, and we didn’t discuss genetics and we didn’t discuss cryopreservation. These are all areas the place folks can contribute. For cryopreservation we may use engineers who perceive warmth switch. I believe engineers can play an enormous function, however we now have to work with the biologists, we now have to work with one another. Just about many elements of engineering, many elements of biology can contribute to this.

The extra groups we now have arising with inventive concepts in what we will do, I believe we now have a greater probability of addressing the issue in order that we will save the reefs.

MB: Amy, it’s been a pleasure. Thanks a lot.

AWJ: Thanks a lot. This has been actually enjoyable. Thanks a lot.

MB: I’m Michael Bernard, host of Redefining Vitality Tech. My visitor right this moment has been physician Amy Johnson Wagner, supplies scientist, who’s for the previous six or seven years been determining what it’s going to take to avoid wasting the reefs from us. That’s it for right this moment. Till subsequent time.